Topic: Another "how did they do that?" thread - carved vase with ? maker's mark

[Frank]

Such a resistant mark 

The mould could also have been carved, more expensive then using acid but still cheaper then conventional cameo which fits with the reason that the factory was established. The cameo from that factory was also marked differently. References: Hartmann and Haanstra.

[Mosquito]

I had a vase very similar to this, marked 'Lorraine France' and with the FBS 'Trade Mark' stamp which I sold back in 2006. The decoration was certainly acid etched into the vase itself and not moulded. The mark is not consistent with any known marks from Verrereie D'Art Lorrain, most notably there is the addition of the letter 'e' to the end. In fact, at the time, I wondered if the mark was spurious, but seeing another example with a virtually identical mark would suggest that that was not the case. I'll have alook & see if i can retrieve any of my photos for comparison.

[Mosquito]

here we are, sorry the base pic is not too clear but I can confirm it was marked 'Lorraine France' in engraved script with an acid stamp FBS mark incorporating TRADE MARK around the bottom of the outer circle.

[krsilber]

Clearly the same stamp as this one...
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=183.0;attach=10241;image

...that one doesn't have the word 'TRADEMARK' underneath it though.

Duh, I knew the diamond/dot circle looked familiar, that's my demitasse!  I even reviewed that thread and didn't notice it.

Steven, thanks heaps for the info and the photos.  Looks very similar in some ways to the piece in the ebay thread.  I wondered about the "e" on the Lorraine too, and surmised that it was there because it's the English spelling, so it makes sense with "France."  It's possible that the mark "Lorraine France" is just another part of the wholesaler's mark, like the FBS, so has nothing to do with a maker's mark.

Thanks to Frank, too, for the info about Verame and Verrerie d'Art Lorrain.  "The mould could also have been carved, more expensive then using acid but still cheaper then conventional cameo which fits with the reason that the factory was established. "  Are you referring here to the Verrerie d'Art Lorrain factory, and saying it was established by Daum for mass-produced type wares?  I'm curious what specifically about the piece indicates to you that the design was molded.

Just trying to get the options and their reasoning organized.

I guess I'm not inclined to think that a mold was sculpted (using acid/sand/wheels/chisels) to make this because the clear parts of the glass are proud of the textured ones.  This would mean that they were carved into the mold as well, more deeply that the texture was, and it strikes me as a difficult thing to do to get the clear parts nice and even with each other.  One alternative is that the form was originally made in wax or plaster, and the mold made from that.

I've requested a close-up of the texture, but will reiterate it.

[aa]

I think that those who have suggested that the decoration was achieved mainly with the use of acid are likely to be closest to the mark. However, during that period extraordinary moulds were produced in France with extremely detailed decoration, so it is entirely feasible that some or all of the decoration could have been achieved in the mould.

Different types of acid and different strengths of acid, coupled with how long the glass is left in the acid can give a variety of different textures and these are often mistaken  for other techniques.

I am basing this mainly on memories of discussions some years ago with Andrew Cooper MARCA who used to produce extraordinarily beautiful panels. I commissioned two of these in the eighties and he was very careful to point out the 7 different textures he had achieved mainly by using different strengths of acid and different resists. He also used different levels and grades of sandblasting and acid etched these as well. They were installed in the front door frame of our family gallery at 192 Piccadilly. After we moved they remained there for some years, but a few years ago a tenant, obviously unaware of their provenance, removed them.

I do have a vague memory of Antonin Daum explaining the technique of a similar vase to me back in the seventies, but I am afraid I can't remember the details.

As I prefer to get my fingers burnt the conventional way, I have never tried acid etching so have no direct experience to relate.

The trouble about some of these techniques is that there is often more than one way to achieve a similar result, and unless one was there or has first hand knowledge it is often impossible to be 100% accurate.

[krsilber]

Is Verame = Verrerie d'Art Lorrain?

Oops, I meant, is Verame =  Verrerie d'Art de Metz?  That was suggested by a member of the Ebay PGP forum, and according to a few French ebay auctions it's true.  Both these show the sig:  
http://cgi.ebay.fr/COUPE-REHAUSSE-SIGNEE-VERAME-EN-VERRE-FUME_W0QQitemZ260283782269QQihZ016QQcategoryZ146801QQcmdZViewItem

http://cgi.befr.ebay.be/Magnifique-vase-Art-Deco-VERAME_W0QQcmdZViewItemQQitemZ130232490802


...While I was writing this, Adam posted (I was hoping to hear from you!).  I agree that it was probably acid etched, as least as part of the process.  I guess I'm still inclined to believe some other process, probably sandblasting, was combined with it.  So hard to tell without seeing it in person...and as you say, different techniques can look much the same.

Those panels sound awesome.  I don't suppose you have any photos handy?  It would be very interesting to see the different textures achieved with acid, and how the sandblasting was incorporated into it.

[aa]

Unfortunately no images.

[Fuhrman Glass]

In my opinion, all of that decoration was in the mold. I've seen moldmakers work on these things for days chasing them with fine files and chisels. they were capable of doing some very interesting things. Many were cast iron and were made from wooden patterns. This decoration would not have taken that long to make in wood and then cast in iron. I still have a wood model or two that were used to make cast iron molds. after casting in iron they were then tooled by the moldmaker to very exacting patterns and finished off very well. I have some molds that are extremely detailed that I'm sure were done this way.
Tom Fuhrman

[Frank]

is Verame =  Verrerie d'Art de Metz

Seems like a good 'logical' match, perhaps this has been resolved in French literature and just not yet crossed the language barrier, worth asking those sellers where they get the attribution if someone's French is up to it! Or does anyone have a copy of Christophe Bardin - Daum 1878-1939. Une Industrie d'art Lorraine. Metz, Serpenoise, 2004. isbn 2-87692-590-7 as a possible source?

Perhaps Carolus Hartmann has partly resolved that link since his book, see here http://www.lamp-antik.de/Register/Glasmarken/Verame.htm which is in the exact format Hartmann uses - you would need to subscribe to his site to get the reference he based it on.

Chiseled wood sounds good too but the fluidity of the texture is what made me think acid on the mould. The two Verame examples also exhibit interesting texturing. But with a skilled carver you can achieve any effect in wood that its structure can hold. Because of the complexity I felt that the decoration is most probably from the mould and mould makers are used to work in the reversed world.

[Mosquito]

Allow me to repeat: I have handled one of these 'Lorraine France' vases and the design was acid etched not moulded.

Of course it is possible to achieve a similar effect using a mould and Adam is right to point out the expertise of the French mouldmakers of the period - a number of pieces were made with moulded decoration imitating acid etching/ cutting (Lalique's Vase Meandres and a few Verlys patterns spring to mind, as does this unknown vase where the bands are moulded not etched http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-2847). It is usually impossible to tell from a photograph which technique was used, the key is to handle the piece. Acid etched decoration is noticeably 'sharper' than even the best moulded work and small imperfections where the acid resist coat has failed or been applied unevenly are often seen.

A number of surface finishes are achievable using acid, remember, the French were masters at acid cameo work so clearly had great expertise in using acid etching/ reduction techniques to decorate glass. An interesting example of the variety of finishes and techniques seen is displayed by the range of press moulded loop/ arc handled vases which, according to Cappa (See Le Genie Verrier de L'Europe, deuxieme ed., nos. 396 & 397, p.235), were designed by Pierre D'Avesn for Daum. I have seen a number of decorative finishes on these pieces, which all come from the same basic mould.
http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-10690 shows an undecorated example, http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-10689 an example with horizontal bands acid etched into the surface and http://glassgallery.yobunny.org.uk/displayimage.php?pos=-10688 is an example where the surface has an etched wave effect, seemingly achieved by applying the resist in a pattern of dots and allowing the acid to run over the surface.

Steven