Topic: "The Waterfall" by Kny, info required please

[citrusheightskid]

Hey guys everyone!

I'm new to the board and I am trying to find some information about a vase.

This vase has been in the family since the 1950's. We've done some homework on it but we can't find much about it.

The vase is called "The Waterfall" and it's either by Fredrick Kny or Ludwig Kny. We found a little bit of information in a book called "From Broad-Glass to Cut Crystal - A History of the Strourbridge Glass Industry" by D.R. Guttery.

The book is vague as far as when it was created and if it's one of a kind. The book refers to another piece called the 'Elgin' Claret Jug by F.E. Kny, 1873

If anyone can provide me some information about "The Waterfall" would be great. I can get some pictures posted if it'll help.

Thanks!!

Erik

[Frank]

The Elgin Jug was engraved with a frieze of Greek horsemen by Frederick Englebert Kny and completed in 1873 Exhibited at the Paris International Exhibition 1878. Webb's regarded it as one of his finest pieces.

Image courtesy the Glass-Study.

[citrusheightskid]

Here's a scan of the Vase that I'm looking to find more information about. This is from the book.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/citrusheightskid/TheWaterfall1.jpg

[Frank]

Is that an exact match to your vase?  Could you add a picture of yours please.

[citrusheightskid]

I'll be taking photos today and posting them.

[krsilber]

Can't wait to see the photos!

Looks to me like Ludwig was one of Frederick's sons, and he was chief designer for Stuart (http://www.cambridgeglassfair.com/exhibitions/pastexhibitions/2006-02-stuart.htm).  It's possible the vase with the fish pictured in plate 33 in Guttery is one-of-a-kind, but based on the simplicity of the design probably not likely, I'd say.  Looks like a production cutting to me.  It's a far cry from the Elgin jug...although even that design appears to come in multiples!  Between Guttery and Hadjamach there are 4 photos of Elgin pieces, all based on the Elgin marbles (haven't looked into that yet, but assume they are Roman).  There are two Elgin vases, one engraved by F.E. Kny and one that appears to be etched and engraved by Northwood, the Elgin claret engraved by F.E. Kny, and an Elgin jug etched by Northwood (1862, apparently the first one finished).  All similar but different.

That's all off-topic, but I found it rather interesting.

I'm confused about how you've identified the fish vase as Waterfall.

[Sklounion]

Elgin pieces, all based on the Elgin marbles (haven't looked into that yet, but assume they are Roman).

The Elgin Marbles are in fact Greek, and one of the most contentious issues for UK- Greek international relations. It is long overdue that the Elgin Marbles be returned to Athens, by the British Museum.
Regards,
Marcus

[krsilber]

Thanks, Marcus.  I had a niggling little thought saying they were Greek as soon as I wrote that, but ignored it.  Now I'm curious, I'll have to look into it more.

...Ah, wunnerful Wiki.  I see Byron even wrote a poem denouncing the removal by Elgin:
Dull is the eye that will not weep to see
Thy walls defaced, thy mouldering shrines removed
By British hands, which it had best behoved
To guard those relics ne'er to be restored.
Curst be the hour when from their isle they roved,
And once again thy hapless bosom gored,
And snatch'd thy shrinking gods to northern climes abhorred!

Oh, geez, now I'm really OT.  Sorry, no more about the Elgin stuff, I promise.

[citrusheightskid]

Okay Guys!

Here's the pictures that I took.

Hopefully these will help identify this.

http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/citrusheightskid/Fish1.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/citrusheightskid/Fish2.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/citrusheightskid/Fish3.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/citrusheightskid/Fish4.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/citrusheightskid/Fish5.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/citrusheightskid/Fish6.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/citrusheightskid/Fish7.jpg
http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b69/citrusheightskid/Fish8.jpg

Thanks for all the help guys!!

[KevinH]

Thanks for showing photos, Erik.

One thing I note is that the fish shown in the Guttery book (Plate 33) has far fewer spots on the back than the same one on your vase. If I am right about that, it indicates that this vase was most probably a production piece.

It is very well engraved and from memory a Stuart & Son fish vase (different design) that I saw in auction many years ago showed me how the quality of the work was much better than any photo could suggest.

I agree with Kristi's query - on how you have identified this vase as being "The Waterfall". As you say, Guttery's text is a bit vague and as far as I can tell, although the vase is shown in plate 33, there is no text referring to that image. On page 145, the mention of "The Waterfall" (by Frederick Kny) is marked with a footnote stating, "Now in possession of his son, Mr F. Kny of Amblecote." To my mind, that suggests "The Waterfall" vase was indeed a one-off and was probably one of the Rock Crystal pieces which are the main discussion of that section of the book.

The plate 33 image in Guttery's book is annotated, "Pieces designed by Ludwig Kny (son of F. E. Kny)". Whether that means that Ludwig Kny was also the engraver of those fish vases is not clear.

Perhaps it would be a good idea to consult Broadfield House Glass Museum. They may have further information on the Stuart & Sons range of fish vases.