Topic: Who is the baccarat who signed this vase and how old?

[tonyatl]

i have a glass vase painted with a mottled green ground but painted with a flowering branch and two birds against a silvery moon and an oriental or tropical looking yellow circular vignette. it is signed baccarat and stands 8".

does the baccarat signature have any significance - or is it just some schmo whose last name happens to be baccarat? i can't see it being related to the baccarat glass company as this does not seem characteristic of their work. i am gusessing this may be 1940s but could it be earlier? does this belong to any classification of glass or is it just hand painted glass?

ps. well it seems as though one just needs to surf the internet more diligently.....i think this link shows a piece of comparable glass from.......baccarat. http://www.glasshound.com/Baccarat_glass_vase_353.html .....based upon the strong similarity between the two vases, i would accept the earlier dating of 1870-1885.....

[Ivo]

No schmo can produce decoration in this stunning quality so the probability of having run into a Baccarat piece is quite high.

[tonyatl]

it is indeed the baccarat we all know....i was thrown because i had not seen this style of glass work from baccarat and therefore did not know if the baccarat signature represented the company or an otherwise anonymous artist (aka schmo)....the glasshound site was most helpful in resolving the uncertainty.

[Mike M]

Hi

I've seen many a Baccarat signature before but never one like this (nor is it in Glasmarken Lexikon) -it was almost unknown for these pieces to be signed Baccarat -signed by the actual designer - yes - but not Baccarat.

Having said that the enamelling is pure Baccarat Chinoiserie

Makes me think of two possibilites

1. Pure Baccarat but signature added later by enthusiatic amateur
2. Someone copying Baccarat -but probably close to date Baccarat was making them (1875-1890)

Either way still beautiful

[tonyatl]

the glasshound example does not have a signature but the form of the two vases is identical.....if he has identified it as baccarat without the signature then there is probably good reason to believe that my vase is baccarat....and using occam's razor, there is no reason to suppose that an enthusiastic fan added the signature ex post facto......it is entirely possible that baccarat used it later in production to protect intellectual property or to make marketing points.

i would like to find more of these vases to see how they are treated....the uncomfortable implication of my conclusion is that we have a heretofore unidentified baccarat "backstamp" but under the circumstances there is no reason to back away from the conclusion absent compelling reasoning otherwise.....

[Glasshound]

Hi Guys,

  I thought I'd chime in here and put my two cents in....these "Baccarat" vases have also been attributed to the Smith Bros. in the U.S. The almost "identical" decoration makes me wonder if any glass decorator(s) of Baccarat moved to the U.S. or vice versa in the 1880's.

Check out this example which has been attributed to the Smith Bros. http://www.glasshound.com/smith_bros_vase_210.html

Blair

[tonyatl]

ok now we are getting evidence and this is interesting.....i read your sales copy and your posting here and need clarification....are you saying that this latest link is indeed a smith brothers creation? or do you feel it is baccarat? it does not seem mt washington....do you have any examples which are certainly smith brothers? upon what did you base your smith brothers attribution?

the migration theory is certainly plausible but i am not prepared to make to much of it yet....pending additional evidence...

[Glasshound]

I'm not a hundred percent sure it's Smith Bros bu there's references to these vases in Pairpoint/Mt. Washington books...it's also possible that at one time (maybe early on) none of these vases were signed and then Baccarat decided to sign them (for export possibly?). I have a book on Baccarat and there is no reference to these vases whatsoever....

Blair

[Mike M]

Hi

Glassmarken Lexicon is THE most complete record of existing glass signatures.
If a signature isn't in there, I get real worried.
Here Occams razor says to me its unlikely to have a undiscovered Baccarat signature so more likely it's been added. Simple to do and may have made a past owner happier or richer!

Add the new info about Smith Bros then it does get interesting. Never seen their stuff but re-looking at the enamelled image there are a lot more colours here than Baccarat used at this time. Their enammelling palate really only expanded c1920 with M Chevallier and even then he used less colours.

My guess and its only a guess; someone fascinated by and trying to copy the Baccarat chinoiserie style and then someone added the signature

cheers

 

[tonyatl]

ok...as long as the mt washington references show them (and the reference is reliable), then i think it is fair to say that mt washington produced these vases...is there a connection between smith brothers and mt washington?

so if we have documented examples by mt washington then it seems that mt washington used the baccarat signature as a promotional device.

are you able to scan the version shown in the mt washington reference?