Topic: It's like Derbyshire, but........what is it?

[Glen]

I'm intrigued by this pressed glass vase. It's very much like one by Derbyshire (late 1800s) and yet....it's not exactly the same. Has anyone seen this exact pattern before? It's a real puzzle to me. (By the way the photo is in black and white).

http://www.geocities.com/carni_glass_uk_2000/What.html

Glen

[Bernard C]

Glen — I have a pair in stock in opaque white.   These have always been something of a mystery.    If you can attribute them from carnival colours it is a new approach and could be productive.    At least you should be able to state who didn't make them, which is something.

I have often wondered whether they were Victorian or later.    So much that has been labelled Victorian has turned out to be comparatively modern.    On Murano recently I was shown a range of "Victorian" traditional 4-flute epergnes that were launched into the English market in the late 1940s!

I shall watch your progress with this pattern with great interest.

Bernard C.  

[Glen]

Bernard, many thanks for your interesting reply.

The vase is known in marigold Carnival - and I am aware of only 3 examples of it. The iridescence isn't a "trial and error" job. It's rich, even and frankly top notch - so it was made by someone who knew what they were doing. It has an English "feel" to it (but that's not proof absolute!) but sadly no marking of any sort.

Glen

[Bernard C]

Glen — I have been chewing over my memories of it and some possibilities:-

1. Some examples show quite bad leaky mould syndrome, showing that the mould was used well after it should have been pensioned off.    This could be an argument against an attribution of one of the big English pressed glass factories.    These glassworks did not lower their standards for just one product; the men on the shop floor did not work that way.

2. I quite like the possibility of a factor like Lang putting it out to tender to all their suppliers across Europe and taking the lowest quote.

3. Woolworths / Turnbull perhaps?   Do you know if Turnbulls made carnival glass?   Or if Woolworths sold carnival glass?

4. Hill Ouston commissioning their manufacture and selling them into the antiques trade?

Bernard C.  

[Frank]

Nothing remotely like it in 2 1930's/40's or two post war HO catalogues.

[Bernard C]

Thanks, Frank, for looking it up and eliminating one possibility.

Glen — It's not in Silber & Fleming, I've looked, twice!

Bernard C.  

[Glen]

Thanks Bernard and Frank.

Bernard - your question about Turnbull is a most interesting one. To the best of my knowledge there is no firm proof that Turnbull made Carnival, though there has been (so far unsubstantiated) speculation. I've always had a sneaking feeling that there is a possibility of it - but no proof as yet.

There was one thing I wanted to think through a little more, so I'll come back on this shortly if I may..........

Glen

[Bernard C]

Glen — more thoughts:-

What capital expediture is needed to make carnival glass?   Outlay on what I believe is called a muffle oven, like the one I have seen used at Okra?   Is that how carnival iridescence is made?   By holding the object on the punty iron in the muffle oven and throwing in the appropriate volatile chemicals.

Even if a muffle oven was acquired second-hand, there is still a lot of cost in setting it up and making it usable.

If so, it leads to another possibility.

Would it have been possible for, say, Turnbulls to have shipped a number up to Sowerbys at Gateshead and had them iridised there?

What if Sowerbys had supplied Turnbulls with the raw cullet for the glass, Turnbulls pressed them, and then shipped them back to Sowerbys for iridising?

What if Turnbulls had just lent Sowerbys the mould?

Just muddying the waters.

Bernard C.  

[Glen]

Interesting theory, Bernard, but would rivals have done this? I don't know. It's possible (I never rule anything out). However, there is a link to Turnbull that I have been chewing over for a little while now. I'll explain.

If you go to Chris Stewart's Cloud/Davidson website and select Davidson glass, Post World War 2, you'll find a posy vase called M.T.1 posy set. It's shown in flint, green and red with a date of 1961. ..... but this posy vase is known in Carnival Glass and it's called "Towers". It is usually "attributed" to Sowerby, but unless Adam D knows differently, it would appear that it was Davidson. Well, at least from 1961. But that isn't the right time for Carnival. The 1920s and 1930s were most likely.

It seems (according to the Stewarts) that the mould for this posy could have previously belonged to Matthew Turnbull (M.T.) So the new question is, did Turnbull make the posy vase in Carnival?

If so, then possibly other unattributed pieces could well be Turnbull. The Thistle and Thorn pieces would be possibilities, as would this "Derbyshire" vase.

We may be onto something. A clincher would be if anyone has the "Thistle and Thorn" creamer and sugars in opaque white with a trademark.

Until more evidence comes along I am only guessing (but I hope it's intelligent guessing  :lol: )

What do you think, Bernard?

Glen

[Adam]

Glen - I would like to join in here but I've searched Chris' site and can't find M.T.1.  Help!

Adam D.