Topic: Dating wrythen ale glasses

[markhig62]

Hi - I am a new but enthusiastic collector of English drinking glasses. I have three wrythen ale glasses which were all sold as Georgian but I am really unsure as to their actual age so I am looking for a little advice. One of the glasses is made from poor quality metal with many bubbles and inclusions whilst the other two are made from a much clearer, purer metal, with far fewer impurities. None of the glasses is particularly grey but none have the clarity and brightness of a modern glass. I am aware that there were different qualities of metal used depending on the intended use of the glass. All of the glasses have snapped pontils and a fair degree of wear on the foot rims.
I have tried to make the photos as clear as possible but I am limited by using a camera phone.
I would be really appreciative of any comments or suggestions about dating these wrythen glasses.

Thanks for looking
Mark

[Paul S.]

Hi - firstly thanks for some reasonably good pix - it helps a lot when trying to provide a useful reply - and good pix of clear glass aren't easy.         There are few collectors of these short/dwarf ales who post here now so you may find replies thin on the ground, but some of the following information might be of use.

If you don't already have Bickerton's 'Eighteenth Century English Drinking Glasses - An Illustrated Guide', then it really is worth buying a copy  -  there must be pre-owned copies out there on Abe or similar  -  I imagine it's still the current volume for C18 drinking glasses, though a bit short on text.           Unfortunately, from your point of view, most collectors go for the wines rather than ales, and having just looked in Bickerton he includes only about a dozen examples of ales, though since those with 'wrythen-funnel' bowls are most collectible then the majority of those are wrythen examples - and sometimes it seems used for cider and perry.

Date wise it seems these wrythen-funnel bowl ales occupy the entire C18, so the trick is to assess where a given appearance fits.      There is a small publication (1978) from Stephen Parry 'Dwarf Ale Glasses and their Victorian Successors', from which it's worth quoting an extract as follows      ............."Trubridge ('English Ale Glasses') illustrates an example that he dates 'c. 1860; my own feeling is that only a few wrythen ales are nineteenth-century, and that any made after 1840 are very exceptional".
Parry speaks about the pontil and gadget marks   -   and of the latter he says "it leaves a Y-shaped-scar" - though we now know that Y and T marks are the result of cutting away the residue of glass from under the foot with shears  -  as opposed to the gadget mark which will only ever be seen on the upper side of the foot. 
All of which is to digress from saying that the opinion of the experts is that short/dwarf ales appear only rarely in the C19  -  that is apart from those made to deceive as to age.

On balance, ales from first half C18 are probably more likely to have a folded foot - and Parry says  " ........      the neo-Venetian wrythen ales all have folded feet  .............    "  -  he was speaking about examples included in an exhibition which can't be reproduced here  ...  but equally many from the period in question have plain non-folded feet  -  the folding of the outer edge was a common Venetian practice on glass and it gave added strength to the edge of a rim or foot.   
And ........  just to confuse you even more  -  the folded foot is a feature found on some glasses - apparently - until early C19.

Dwarf ales as their name suggests are generally less tall than short ales, but here again heights for both can overlap and the entire range form both types might be anywhere from 4.25 to 6.5 inches  -  champers flutes are going to be taller.
The shape of the foot - whether slightly domed or flat can aid with dating  -  Parry says  "a flattish foot, whether folded or not, is unlikely to be earlier than about 1780.     
Examples where the wrythen decoration is taken to the very top of the bowl is less common than otherwise - whether this feature was less popular due to the sensation of smooth glass being more acceptable on the lips I'm not sure.             It's perhaps unusual that all three of your examples have been made in this way.

All things being equal, and looking for some way of dating your glasses, Bickerton suggests that wrythen twist taken to the very top of the bowl indicates c. mid C18  -   Parry looks to be saying c. 1780 for a glass with more of a quilted appearance (similar to those here) to the wrythen effect.    Often, dating can be subjective to some extent, and there's no doubt that experience is necessary in order to feel safe and confident in making assertions.
All of which comes with time and much looking at these things  -  partly to understand what the real deal looks like, and equally to get a handle on the spurious examples. 

the above are only my thoughts, there are others here who hopefully will look in and provide more definitive comments  -  and don't forget to buy a few books - and read them!!  best of luck. 

P.S.    As to origin, can't be certain about a particular country, but as likely to be British as opposed to anywhere else.

   

[markhig62]

Thanks for the extensive reply Paul - very much appreciated. I guess from the design of the glass that these would be late 18th century or so, it's really the quality of the metal which puzzles me. I thought that the very impure one might be some type of clumsy modern attempt to recreate a Georgian ale glass (but would it be worth the effort?) and that the other two might be later 19th century but that too seems unlikely based on what you say.
I guess I need to keep looking at as many examples as I can.
Thanks again Paul and any other opinions welcome!

[Paul S.]

regret I've no idea as to the frequency of copies of these things  -  it's surprising what people will copy if there's a chance of making money, which is usually what drives the appearance of fraudulent pieces.        As for wear, have to remember that a piece made in the latter days of the C19 are very much antiques, and as such can often show a lot of wear, so as a guide unreliable and better to stick to other features.     Colour of glass also, apparently, unreliable - some very clear glass also originated in the C18  -  I'd be more keen on seeds, sharpness of scar, possibly wear around the mouth rim, and quality of moulding  -  but of course all this is to admit that viewing on the screen alone can be deceptive - there's nothing like holding the glass for a vastly better assessment.         Period pieces, with age, patina, and genuineness, have that something that talks to us.   

[markhig62]

Thanks again, When you talk about sharpness of the scar, presumably an 18th century piece will have some dulling whereas a newer piece would be sharper? Sorry if I'm stating the obvious!

[Paul S.]

Hi  -  it's more than likely that snapped pontil remains on first half C18 glasses will be sharper than later scars.     One of the reasons given for the domed shape of first half C18 drinking glasses is that factories lacked the ability to remove the sharp scar, which would scratch the table or whatever, so the high shape of the foot was for a practicable reason, and not for show.
In the later decades of the C18 and certainly in the C19, feet generally became flatter because the sharpness of the snapped scars could be ground/polished plus sometimes fire polished to remove the really sharp bits  -  the scar doesn't dull with age.
Most C19 glasses will have a depression where the scar was removed by grinding/polishing  -  those depressions dating to earlier in the C19 century tend to be wide and shallow, and they become less wide as the decades progress.

[markhig62]

Ah! That's really useful and makes perfect sense when I think about it! Thank you. All of the scars are sharp but don't protrude too far. Not ground or fire polished. So nothing there that contradicts late 18th century.

I really appreciate the advice/info.

[glassobsessed]

- there's nothing like holding the glass for a vastly better assessment.         Period pieces, with age, patina, and genuineness, have that something that talks to us.   

Absolutely, it is often the small or subtle clues that we are not necessarily aware of that fuel that talking. That inner voice/instinct is informed by experience, there is no substitute for years of handling as much stuff that interests you as possible. There is an interesting book that delves into this process called Blink by Malcolm Gladwell if anyone is interested, think a couple of chapters can be read here:
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Blink/FiPLHNvT_NkC?hl=en&gbpv=1&printsec=frontcover

Sorry this is way off topic...

John

[markhig62]

Thanks for that - as you say, experience is the key - I'll just have to find some kind dealers/collectors who don't mind me handling their glasses!

[glassobsessed]

Antique fairs are a good place to start, you will usually find a great range of glass especially at the bigger events. Dealers should be happy to chat about their wares, the better informed and more confident to buy customers are the more they are going to sell.

I only shut up when I see potential customers eyes glaze over. Probably lost them by that stage anyway!