Topic: when do star cut bases date from?

[flying free]

Are there not drawings in antique medical volumes regarding these items?  or cartoons demonstrating their use?
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[Anik R]

The cupping jars illustrated in Frederik Dekkers' Exercitationes practicae (1694) are very much like Ju1i3's item.
See here.

For a clearer illustration, see the 5th picture down here.

[ipdglasspolishing]

These are all respected dealers and collectors of medical instruments, as you will see all leech pots have the distinctive flat rim.

http://medicalantiques.com/medical/Scarifications_and_Bleeder_Medical_Antiques.htm
http://collectmedicalantiques.com/gallery/leeches
http://curiousscience.com/20/Pharmacy/1/
http://www.phisick.com/a3ljb1.htm
http://www.vintagemedical.com/pages/1103-23.html
http://www.vintagemedical.com/pages/leechbowl.html
http://www.fleaglass.com/index.php?a=5&b=271&page=1
http://www.vanleestantiques.com/object.php?id=814
http://thegriffincollection.com/171.html
http://www.french-antique-dealers.com/item/43347/19th-c-blown-glass-leech-jar

this one sold on ebay is (imho) not a leech jar but a dry mustard pot with the lid missing.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Antique-Georgian-Wrythen-Glass-Leech-jar-/300575338800   :thup:

[Frank]

Nicely found Anik.

Dealers, no matter how well respected will market their products according to current fashion and not always on the best research, maybe only a single reference source was used - those that do so usually go to great lengths to qualify their attributions with multiple references. Most of the researchers on this board are not interested in the currently used terms but the correct terms. The bulk of the trade defines its own terms and parameters much of which have been in regular use for so many years and can often be traced back to a single author that has just been slavishly repeated from book to book over the years. Only in the last 20 years or so have academic standards changed in glass research and many of the so-called 'classic' volumes trashed as a result. Unfortunately many collectors do not break ground and limit their studies to a few books so they two are not reliable sources. Ivo is certainly not such a collector and breaks much new ground in glass knowledge.

It is also a fact that almost every form of object can be found in a vast array of different designs - hence there are a lot of designers in the world.

Ivo said it, only the manufacturers intended use of a design is the correct one. As we have seen contemporary versions of these pieces still come in a variety of shapes from a wide range of makers including similar to that shown in this thread.

I may well have cupping jars in my own catalogue collection but these are still not accessible. I can come back to this in a year or two by which time I hope to be back to working on the catalogues.

[ipdglasspolishing]

I am sorry but I find this whole matter insulting, Ivo and Frank listen to no one, my collection was built up over 15years my knowledge of glass extends to 25 years but according to you two what I have been collecting is not what I know it is, the knowledge I have I do not really have. I have tried to share my experience with other members many times in the past only for that information to be dismissed by these same two. I accept that Ivo and Frank do have a vast knowledge between them but on everything? I do not think so. If this rant gets me thrown off the site so be it. One last shot, the photos shown by Ivo ARE cupping cups and NOTHING like the leech pots that the rest of the world is happy to accept as leech pots. I am happy with my knowledge and luckily do not need Frank and Ivo's approval.  :thup:

[Frank]

Sorry you feel that way but you are perhaps missing the point.

Frank and Ivo listen to everyone, of course I would be the first to agree that both of us are given to short replies which are often misunderstood. A question of time really.

It is necessary to keep an open mind to progress knowledge. As in every field anyone challenging the status-quo is often regarded with fear, distrust or contempt. But this board has collectively challenged many such established views and proven new truths regardless of the discomfort that may be caused to cherished tradition. New and proven knowledge generally enhances collecting even if it causes waves in values as the knowledge is spread. The benefit of operating collaborative public research is that it allows for a much wider range of input and examples than one person research and any proven conclusions get rapidly integrated into the collecting world.
 
In this particular issue;

1. Cupping jars and Leech jars are popular collectables that seem to have become defined by the collecting world in a particular manner based solely on shape.

2. There appears to be no recent and definitive research in the subject.

3. A cursory search of cupping jars which are still in common usage shows that there are a substantial variation of shape including spread/flared lip which is stated as being an aid to cleaning/drying.

4. One 17th century source shows the type now raising controversy.

5. Leach carriers are mostly illustrated with integral closures, the small glass jars with spread/flared rims being assumed generally to be leech carriers being an exception! An exception that affects practicality is an instant red flag.

a. Having to tie on a cover would be very inconvenient when a simple integral closure would be so simple to provide.

b. Perhaps in years gone by patients were less squeamish but unlike most of the other leech carriers a glass jar would not conceal the creatures from the patient prior to their use.

c. Lesser point, but I have seen no examples with a carrying case, most glass medical jars of specialised function intended for portability are often provided with such and these have remained.

[Ivo]

I agree to that and am sorry you take the question of reference as an attack on your collection. Not intended and not necessary.

We have plenty of reference of cupping jars; these feature in many general glass catalogues such as Meisenthal and  Holmegaard all through the 19th century. Cupping jars come in many shapes and forms, and had many uses in the world of pharmacy and doctoring. There were industries (Oullins in Lyon for instance) producing these simple forms for third parties: pharmaceutical wholesellers, doctor's outfitters etc. As ventouses are hardly ever marked, proving a manufacture is mostly impossible.

Leech jars come in many forms, both pottery and glass. The essence is these are tall, footed, have a ball shaped bowl to foil any escape attempt and have a flat rim.

As for transport, leeches were transported in lidded pewter containers as per http://www.sangsue.ch/Dateien/sangsue_ordre_pharmacien.pdf which also gives some wriggly statistics.

And as for applicators, these were various glass items with a narrow neck allowing the precise positioning of the suckers. Ventouses were used with a piece of cardboard with holes in it. Three leeches in a ventouse were applied, a few drops of wine would entice them to flee to the cardboard with the exposed skin and yum yum bite the host. The ventouse would then be taken away. For single application a glass tube would be used.

Nowhere in the story, and nowhere in the medical catalogues can flanged "leech pots" be found.  There are pots much like it for packaging anchovies, for various preserves or for dry good storage. But none mention leeches specifically.

There we have the dilemma. And that is why we would like to see some reference that these are specifically for leeches. Their similarity in shape to leech jars is inconclusive.

curious as ever.

Ivo