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Author Topic: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection  (Read 4286 times)

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Offline oldglassman

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #20 on: December 09, 2011, 10:00:19 AM »
Hi ,
      Glass 3,

A C Hubbard like me is particularly fond of giant goblets,those of you who have already viewed my on line Goblet Collection which was exhibited at the Cambridge Glass Fair a couple of years ago will of course know this,so when the chance came to possibly acquire a couple of his monsters I was very pleased indeed , the hammer came down twice in my favour,so here is the first one ,
no great surprises for this 1 except the size and weight ,there is still much speculation as to the original use of very large goblets , some say they were for club use or even perhaps for ceremonial occasions like weddings etc where the goblet was passed from person to person to make a toast ,or the version I like ,they were for folks who liked a proper drink from a decent sized glass instead of the fashionable tiddly things that were most commonly used in the 18thc,
Credit must be given to the glass blowers who made these things,all that weight on the end of a punty rod and they still kept there shape.

It is a Heavy baluster Goblet c 1720 with a waisted cup bowl over a teared inverted baluster knop, basal knop,and a folded foot .
Height is 26cm  10 1/4 ins bowl width is 14cm  5 1/2 ins the folded foot is 16cm  6 5/16th ins weighing in at 1 kilo 462 grams or 3 lbs 3 1/2 Oz's with a capacity of 2 3/4 pints.,
it has a few light scratches to the bowl but otherwise is in perfect original condition. (it's not the biggest one i brought home)

Cheers ,
                Peter.


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Offline Lustrousstone

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #21 on: December 09, 2011, 11:18:54 AM »
It's huge but beautifully proportioned  ;D

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2011, 08:58:03 PM »
might be risky holding a full one of these if inebriation had already set in!  -  and I thought my one pint example was big.
According to Harold Newman (dictionary) these things are known to have been made up to a height of 45 cms. - and as you say a true feat for the glass blower.     
Apparently the French have a custom of passing round what they call a 'wedding pot' or large wine glass at the wedding cerermony - which again relates to the suggestion that not perhaps just for individual consumption.       There's reference on the internet presently to examples of 12 inches in height, and holding a staggering 115 fluid ounces  -  and you just have to hope that not too many people turn up for the reception  (isn't the volume of a litre about 20 fluid ounces) - so that's nearly six bottles per 'pot'. :ho:

I would imagine Peter that this example is a lovely soft lead colour, or is it slightly greenish.

Anyway, go careful with this at Christmas, but I reckon that quite a few of us GMB members could imbibe from a single filling - where do we meet up ;)

thanks again for sharing. :)

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Offline Bernard C

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #23 on: December 10, 2011, 09:22:34 AM »
...   (isn't the volume of a litre about 20 fluid ounces)   ...

Paul — not quite.   ;D

When we are discussing capacity, it's best to keep to ounces (fluid ounces), as they're almost the same worldwide.    That's why all British glassworks used ounces when possible in their published material.   For example Whitefriars described their Garland whisky glasses as 10oz on their box here.   Actually the US ounce is slightly different to the avoirdupois ounce, about 4% larger, as it's based on the old English measures of capacity before we in Britain standardised on the avoirdupois system in 1824, but as that difference is often less than the variation in capacity of individual hand made or hand pressed glasses in a set, it can be ignored in this context.

Pints are quite noticeably different as there are 16 ounces in a US pint and 20 in a British pint.

I don't know whether the capacity of old continental European glasses was measured in ounces or litres (introduced in France in 1795) — I can't find anything on this in Haanstra.   Anything other than avoirdupois ounces would have caused difficulties for international marketing.   Perhaps some kind soul would provide enlightenment.

Bernard C.  8)
Happy New Year to All Glass Makers, Historians, Dealers, and Collectors

Text and Images Copyright © 2004–15 Bernard Cavalot

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #24 on: December 10, 2011, 09:56:20 AM »
apologies Bernard, I didn't check my facts prior to posting, and was going from memory only.

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Offline oldglassman

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #25 on: December 10, 2011, 10:30:03 AM »
HI,
         yes Paul a lovely bluey grey colour , green tints tend to be found on earlier glasses , 1680s or so when problems were still being encountered with colour with the increase is quantity of lead oxide used,by the 1690s i think this was all but fixed ,though a few slightly later glasses can still show a touch of green , I do have a little sweetmeat glass from c 1670 which is quite greeny in the tint ,

Sorry I cant beat the 45cm you noted but if you look here , http://www.glassassociation.org.uk/Cone/goblets-gallery.html the second glass in the continental section this little thing is 40 cm including its lid, c 1680 and holding just over 2 litres  :thud:

Bernard , an interresting thought as to whether older glasses , ie  18th British and Continental glasses were made with an exact capacity in mind or were they made to general excepted forms and sizes for the day which were always approximately the same capacity, for example for an 18thc glass to be a cordial  has to have a capacity of no more than 2 fluid ozs, it has to be a tall glass though , if smaller with the same capacity it would be a dram or firing glass type .

Cheers ,
             Peter.

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Offline oldglassman

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #26 on: December 11, 2011, 10:31:08 AM »
Hi ,
          Now for something completely different,

The smallest and the Cheapest glass in the 'Hubbard' sale,these are known by various names , Bonnet glasses , Dessert glasses , salts, they are found with many varieties of moulded bowls and feet,this is the first example of 1 with Lynn rings(which i understand to be tooled and not moulded) that i have encountered,many items are found which are given the title 'Lynn Glass',wine glasses,tankards,decanters,tazzas etc,all having tooled rings, thought to have originated in Kings Lynn Norfolk UK , though no archaeological evidence has been found to support this .
This little thing is 3 ins or 7.6cm tall the bowl is 2 5/16th ins or 5.8cm and the plain conical foot is 2 5/16ths or 5.8 cm. and very nice for a little single malt  :thup:

Cheers ,
               Peter ,

(still more to come )

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Offline oldglassman

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #27 on: December 12, 2011, 10:47:00 AM »
HI,
         Oh well not much said about the last 1 so lets continue with the biggest beast to come home with me.

A heavy baluster Goblet c 1720,having a large cup bowl on a true baluster stem with a large cushion knop over a domed plain conical foot .Height 11 1/2 ins Bowl 5 7/8th ins foot 6 3/16th ins ,weight is a massive 2240 grams or 4lb 15 oz, with a capacity of 4 British pints or 80 fluid oz.

Not everyones 1/2 gallon of tea ,but if you collect Goblets it was a must have.

Cheers,
        Peter.

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #28 on: December 12, 2011, 11:10:02 AM »
not quite Peter  -  sometimes it takes a day or so to get the little grey cells working - the delayed resonse is no indication of apathy. ;)      Coincidentally, I had just finished typing the following - went to post - and discovered you had submitted the next glass.          Anyway, here is an offering on the Lynn example, sorry it's a bit wordy - and if you're looking Emmi, it's not my fault, just the nature of the beast. ;)


thanks again Peter, great piece - and hope you won't think my contribution impertinent - perhaps some folk might find it interesting if we flesh out the historical context slightly.
I lost a blue 'bonnet' glass recently, on ebay, and am still miffed - however, I'm inclined to call these things deserts/jellies (which you suggest), they seem too deep - plus I feel the outline shape is wrong - for a salt, but who knows, any port in a storm perhaps.       However, what we must not call it, apparently, is a Monteith, and using it for a single malt is perhaps the best use (not that I would drink from mine  -  and I don't yet have a Lynn example).   
I notice that Ward Lloyd described this horizontal banding feature as 'moulded', which you say is now considered to have be tooled - a view shared by Newman, who suggested that the effect was produced by the pucellas (the tongs which prior to about 1830 was the tool which produced the striation marks on bowls, and which would be the obvious candidate for the horizontal bands on these so called Lynn glasses - Wilkinson).     One leg of the tool is placed inside the bowl and the other outside, thus forming the shape required. 
Apparently, during the period of manufacture of Lynn glasses (middle third of the C18), the pucellas was still made of metal (Ash), and more inclined/useful for leaving marks on bowls - and it's possible that this trademark banding ceased for just the reason that wooden pucellas were inadequate for creating the banding effeciently.    This is pure speculation on my part, however.

The name Lynn refers to Kings Lynn (Norfolk - U.K.).

Hartshorne is quoted as having said (c. 1897), he knew of specific reasons for assigning these things to Lynn, but apparently never expained what these were and went to his grave without divulging details.    It seems unlikely that he would have made that claim based solely on the generalisation that there were glass houses in Norfolk, which of course obviously, there were, and apparently, this entire concept of glasses with horizontal banding being called Lynn pieces, sprang solely from Hartshorne's comments in the late C19.
You're the expert Peter, and I take it that it still remains correct that glasses with this banding remain unaccounted for (archeoligically speaking) from the Kings Lynn area.

As for the location of glass houses in that part of Norfolk, there is evidence of Roman glass workings at Caistor-by-Norwich (Kenyon), but subsequent to that period it appears that Norwich remains inactive as far as glass making is concerned.
There is good evidence that there was a glass house at Yarmouth - date wise somewhere from the end of C17 to the middle of the C18 - and Buckley has suggested that these Lynn pieces might have originated in Yarmouth somewhere around 1725 - 1758, although presumably this again was his peculation only.
Thorpe cites Mansell as having started, or absorbed, glass houses in a variety of places including Kings Lynn, but the best of entries for Lynn glass that I have, comes from Elville.
Some of the best glass making sand has been extracted from the Lynn area since the C18, so a very good place to be if you want to make glass, and it's a matter of record that there was a glass house operating at Lynn from c.1693, and still apparently fully working c.1747 - although probably killed off not too long after that date by the dreaded Glass Excise Act which had been implemented only a year or two earlier in 1745.
I'd like to think it really was Lynn - sounds a little romantic.

Anyway, don't drop it, and thanks again for sharing.             Next one please :)






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Offline Lustrousstone

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Re: Ex A C Hubbard Jr Collection
« Reply #29 on: December 12, 2011, 11:55:42 AM »
Lynn would be a good place to make glass simply because of its long-term status as a trade centre. The comprehensive Wikipedia article says that a glassmaking industry began in the late 17th century. I would imagine there are records in the town; it wasn't too badly bombed, unlike much of the rest of Norfolk.

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