Topic: A new weight, but I'm baffled as to maker - any ideas?

[m1asmithw8s]

I just don't like the dealers who keep calling Chinese weights Murano. What does one do with them? I was at the big Toronto Antique Mall the other day (some former dealers at lamented long gone Harbourfront Antique Center) and two dealers insisted that Chinese paperweights were Italian, when to any discerning eyes they were Chinese. It infuriates me. Perhaps one or two Chinese weights belong in any collection (I have none, preferring to spend my short Canadian Dollars on more quality paperweights), but this falsification riles me. Why do dealers do this?

I couldn't agree more with the above statement.
In my opinion, this trend started on ebay a few years back as, at that time, actual Murano weights were fetching much higher prices relative to modern Chi weights. So a couple of sellers started calling their Chi's Murano in order to realize higher prices. Over time, most everyone who put up a modern Chi weight took to calling it a Murano.
Now, neither Murano or Chi weights fetch very much.
They are easy to spot though and yes, the most infuriating aspect of this are erstwhile reputable & 'knowledgable' dealers who have followed suit.

One interesting footnote: Studios on the island of Murano do have some modern Chi weights mixed in with their weights on display.
This means that Murano studios import them from China like other parts of the world do BECAUSE THEY ARE SO CHEAP & A PROFIT CAN BE TURNED.
However, they are still modern Chi weights!
For example, if a German dealer in Germany possesses & sells to you a rick Ayotte weight, that DOES NOT make Rick Ayotte a German artist.

[m1asmithw8s]

...My analogy meaning to point out that simply because a Chi weight makes it way to Murano, that doesn't make it an Italian made weight  

And yes, I once saw a modern Chi weight listed on ebay with a fraudulent Ayotte script signature.

[Frank]

Ah, but when a name like Murano is used as a trade mark by a Murano glass company who had it produced to their design, it is there work - regardless of the location of the craftsmen.

Let us not forget that we are discussing weights that are made as commodities and not as artworks. I have not heard any public outcry that all of the souvenirs in London are made in China.

When you collect such commodities you have to take into account their social context as well.

Another aspect of this never ending China debate is that opens up a whole new area of collecting. What will happen with Chinese weights when the first book comes out on them and reveals how the industry is developing there. Then we will have big discussions here about which Canton a weight was made in :twisted:

[m1asmithw8s]

Frank wrote: Ah, but when a name like Murano is used as a trade mark by a Murano glass company who had it produced to their design, it is there work - regardless of the location of the craftsmen.

Frank, what in the world makes you think that any Murano glass company sent their designs to China to have Chinese craftsmen produce the weights???
Have you been to Murano?
They have so many furnaces & makers in such a small area and certainly have no need to have anyone else anywhere 'produce their designs'.

Furthermore, are those souvenirs in London that are made in China labeled as being 'made in China'? Or are they labeled as being 'made in Italy'?...Or 'made in England'?

You see my point?

[Leni]

So who puts the 'Murano' labels on Chinese weights on sale in Murano and Venice?  Or should I say, who authorises those labels being put on Chinese weights?  Are you saying the poor inocent shopkeepers really think the weights came from the glass-house just around the corner?  Because the label says so?  Who are the 'baddies' here?  

You are Estlin-Clichy, and I claim my £5!   :lol:  :twisted:

[Frank]

It has been confirmed to me that Murano makers are sub-contracting some souvenir production out of Italy. They are not labelled as made in Italy nor as made in China. It may irk object collectors but collectors of the industrial age  should find this aspect a fascinating part of their hobby.

The collectors of Chinese weights, who visit but are nervous about posting because a few choose to insult them, are interested in the origins of their weights and in discovering more about the Chinese paperweight industry.

I have yet to find a collector of industrial glass - whose origins can be even tougher to resolve - that does not enjoy this aspect of the hobby. The average collector with a piece of Corning Macbeth gauge glass knows that they may have American glass... or Scottish... or German... or Japanese and possibly these days Chinese. All made to the same formula to the US companies design, they are American glass with uncertain country of manufacture. But then those that are rude to collectors of one genre of weight would probably display a similar arrogance towards such collectors too.

This board does not take any position as to what is a good or bad collectible - indeed quite a different view, that any aspect of glass is of interest to at least one person. True collectors are above the financial aspect, they, and I, collect what interests and what suits our budget. If a collector does not want to collect something that is their choice but this board will not tolerate some of the racist and elitist attacks that have been made on this board in the past.

We want people to share their interests and not their disinterests. Those visitors who attack the interests of other collectors will not be tolerated - these forums are here to expand all of our knowledge in areas that interest us, but also in areas that we may not have known about before. When I first came here my own interests and knowledge were very narrow and focussed - through the sharing of knowledge by so many others I have learnt a lot  and as a result expanded my own collection in new directions.

The crazy thing is that the argument that Chinese weights are mis identified as Murano can only be resolved by expanding the knowledge about Chinese weights. This board is an ideal venue for expanding that knowledge and resolving the cause for complaint.

Political discussion will in future be moved to the cafe and any more fascistic comment will be edited out and the offender warned.

Chinese weight collectors please get your knowledge on board, consider the above arguments and be a leader in knowledge and not a follower of dogmatism. You are welcome here.

[Lustrousstone]

Well said Frank

[m1asmithw8s]

Frank, what is your source or sources that say Murano makers are sub-contracting some souvenir production out of Italy?
I ask because it sounds like some line an ebay seller uses to justify calling the weights they're selling as being Murano weights when, in fact, they are Chinese weights.
I should mention too in response to another member who asked about who puts Murano labels on the Chi weights when a label is present that;
These labels come in sheets for both Chi (Made in china) & Murano (labels vary) weights. Anyone buying the weights in bulk can ask for sheets of labels and then afix any label to any weight as they so choose.
So much for a label authenticating a weight, huh.

That being said, I certainly agree with Frank that those who collect Chi weights should feel welcome and feel that their collection matters as much as anyones   Myself included as I have over 50 Chi weights in my collection and enjoy them.
They are collectable and that is a good thing.

I also have over 50 weights made on the island of Murano in my collection.
Then, lol, they are all of the others I collect ranging from original Millville crimp roses to other crimp rose makers of more recent vintage.
I enjoy the work of the modern lampwork masters and have more than a few of those too.
Bohemian post classic period weights are another sub collection of mine.
Actually, about the only sub genre of weights that I do not collect are they 19th century French weights.

So thank you Frank for this site and all of your efforts  

[Frank]

My information comes from a retailer of murano based in Venice, this person cannot speak out publicly as they would lose their suppliers. But it is only the touristware and not the art glass so in no way a crime.

The site is Angela Bowey's, I just help out.

[Frank]

And thanks for your last post, it clarifies your position - we are a litlle nervous on this topic because of another person that was very unpleasant regarding those that collect Chinese weights, he reappears from time to time under a new ID.