Topic: Is it Baccarat, and what is the pattern?

[JudyMoon]

These goblets were sold to me through eBay, and advertised as antique Baccarat, predating 1931.  The shape looks very much like Baccarat Chambolle, but they have cut stems, more like Rabelais pattern.  I measured the waters at 6.25" and the wines at 5.5", though I can't guarantee the accuracy.  I registered them with replacements.com, which named them pattern unknown 11970.  I am certain they are equal in quality of Baccarat, as the crystal is quite delicate, and their ring is longer and finer than any of the other vintage crystal I own.  I would be thrilled to learn their identity for certain.

[Paul S.]

hello Judy, and welcome to the GMB
Just wanted to say that your first two pix are are unusual but attractive, and of good quality - the greek key banding is very distinctive.

With stemware, it's often helpful - tho not always conclusive - to see a close up picture of the underside of the foot.          I'm not remotely good at Baccarat, but am aware that older production ofter carried the round acid backstamp showing a decanter, wine glass and tumbler  -  and it may be significant if your pieces are without this.
Had these dated prior to 1931, you might also expect to see some wear on the feet  -  is there any evident wear to suggest some reasonable age?

Probably academic to pose the question now, but perhaps you might have asked the seller what reasons they had for saying these were Baccarat.

Hopefully someone will be able to identify your glasses.

[JudyMoon]

Thanks for your input, Paul.  Actually, the first "two" pictures are the same picture I inadvertently uploaded twice.  It was taken by my son as part of a high school photography project (he is now in college majoring in a scientific photography).  I don't know why the seller thought the crystal was Baccarat, other than that she obtained it from someone who represented it to her (as I recall, it was a woman with whom I corresponded).  The crystal was in Montevideo, Uruguay when it was up for sale, and I have gone back to my records to find the ebay identity of the seller, who is in the U.S.A. I might contact her again to see if she recalls the merchandise.  At the time I bought the waters and wines, she also had matching cordials and decanter for sale, which I declined.  However, as I recall, the decanter was shaped very much like the Rabelais pattern decanter.  As for wear on the feet, there appears to be some, but very little, considering the alleged age.  There are no maker's marks whatsoever anywhere on this crystal. This leads me to believe that either I have antique Baccarat, or it is another brand crystal.  Perhaps I am naïve, but I would think that Baccarat catalogued every pattern it made, and that there must be a source to determine this issue.  Regardless, I like the crystal very much, whatever it is, but I am curious enough to keep digging.

[Anne Tique]

A little late, just short of four years  , but I had not seen this post before.

I haven't got the name of this model, can't find it at the moment, but the décor is called pantographié 53, illustrated in the 1905 VSL catalogue on different models, available in two version, gold like yours and a matte acid version.

If I'm not mistaken, I believe that VSL had an outlet in Montevideo and also in Buenos Aires, so it's no surprise they were sold over there and it's normal they're not marked for this period.

[JudyMoon]

Anne, forgive me for getting back after almost 2 years.  Your input was so very helpful, and I am certain my crystal is VSL, most likely on the Soleure stem.  I have searched the internet extensively for confirmation.  However, I could find none.  I even wrote to VSL about it, but got no response (not surprising, as i didn’t request the expensive services of inspection by their experts). I am hesitant to spend money on a VSL catalogue, as they are quite expensive, and I’m not sure whether one would contain my pattern and stem.  I’m beginning to think that VSL didn’t produce many of this pattern/stem. 

Do you know whether VSL has recorded every pattern and stem combination it has produced, at least since the early 20th Century? Most my knowledge of crystal is of that produced in USA in early to Mid 20th Century.  Any help you or others could provide would be greatly appreciated.

[Anne Tique]

Hello Judy,

I'm sure everything  was catalogued at the time but a lot has gone on since then. First it's a design that was taken out of production at some stage, which is normal as like any manufacturer,  they can only carry on for so long with a design. Second, VSL has lost an awful lot of documentation. In 1974 when the company was declared bankrupt and the government became curator, they cleared the offices and documents, catalogues and sketches were literally shovelled out and thrown in a skip. I was talking at VSL about this last week, just came up in a conversation, and I was told that no employees or anybody in fact was allowed near any of these documents, as the government had taken over and they were ignorant to the fact that all of this might have an enormous cultural value at some point.



At some point after 1974, a museum in Liege became curator and they have cleared any info or documents and catalogues that was left, so at VSL they haven't got anything anymore and it still is a thorn in their side, but it was out of their hands, backs against the wall and they just had to witness this horrible event. The fire that they had at VSL and the water damage that it caused also didn't help anything that was left.

I'll have another look at what I can find but you can also try the Corning Museum, as they have today the largest  collection of catalogues and sketches and they have been very helpful in the past. It just takes a little to get a reply.

[JudyMoon]

Thanks so much for the information, Anne.  I will follow up with the Corning museum per your advice.

[Anne Tique]

Since my first reply I've managed to get another catalogue from 1906 this time, had not thought of this thread, but there are a few more models with pattern 53 on it but not this one. There's one model that looks very similar with the rim slightly inverted towards the bowl, very elegant btw, but it has got a different pattern and cut this time. The annoying thing with VSL at the time is, that with a different pattern, they gave the same model a different name, which later on they stopped doing. Just the model with the pattern number or name, which makes more sense and is more logique.

Question for you now … how did you manage the image with the water being poured in the glass? Very effective and 'refreshing' 


To answer to your no-reply from VSL, not everybody speaks English there so there's a language barrier and I also think that they can't give you an answer because of what I've described earlier...but they're nice people really 😀 just a bit stuck in their old habits  finding it difficult to move with time.