Topic: ID/ age please C18TH style honeycomb bowl and air twist stem

[david31162]

Can anyone help with this? I feel this as a copy of an 18th century glass. It has a part honeycomb bowl and an air twist stem.It is just short of 17cm and has a small neat ground pontil.
  But how old is it and where was it produced? Can i find more?
Thank you
David

[Paul S.]

hello David - whilst we wait for Peter to look in, hopefully, I'll do the head on the block bit.
The obvious features of your glass are not in themselves wrong for the C18, but I'm wondering what it is that makes you doubt that this is a correct period piece - you don't say.
The part honeycomb moulding (whether diamond patterned or more hexagonal) is o.k.......... the air twist spirals in the more common direction so not a problem.......the foot looks (but difficult to see exactly) to be domed.........apparently the snapped pontil started to be ground smooth from c.1760 ish.......round funnel bowls like yours have arguably been the most common bowl shape............the overall height is about right.
So how about the possible down side.........if it's an English piece it should be lead glass, and when pinged should ring well.    The bowl shape, although r.f. (round funnel), looks exagerated at its base - looks more like a C19 sherry or port bowl, possibly.    The colour of the glass, in pic. three, looks very white, perhaps lacking the oily grey colour you might expect from c.1770 ish, and although knops come in a myriad of placements on the stem, this pair look a tad unrefined.          Try flicking it first - if no lead ring, then you may have a problem.

No chance of finding out where it was made, unfortunately, and unlikely you'll ever see another one.       You say nothing of possibly wear, or whether you are suggesting a C19 or C20 copy.          Copies of forgeries are made only when there is a market for them, or when the originals have reached a viable market value, to warrant copies being worthwhile.         Regret I know nothing of copies of these things..........they may have been coming from the continent in recent decades but I really don't know.
So, what was it that made you suspicious, and where did you get it from          

[Paul S.]

I might have added that (if the piece is period)...............the glass should sit on the extreme outer edge of the foot, so wear may be difficult to detect without a lens.       Look also for the striation lines on the bowl and foot, and remember that if it's going to be right, then the colour, weight and ring should all be present.  

[KevinH]

The thing I would question is the tight air twist around what seems to be a very large central air bubble extending the length of the stem. I don't see any like that in the Barrington Haynes book.

[david31162]

Thanks for your thoughts  Paul and Kevin. My reasons for thinking it was modern were mainly colour, condition (no obvious wear- other than a chip) and the pontil. It just seemed too neat. That's possibly because I'm only used to the very lowest end of the market in early glasses, so am only used to rough bases. I thought the glass was too light in colour and bright. Also fairly fresh on the base with little wear. The cleanly finished pontil too. I bought it with a group of several decent little C18th -early C19th  glasses, and as soon as I washed it,(it was very grimy) I had it marked as recent. It has a chip to the base so it is no real value even if genuine. I just really like its style and would happily have a few of these to use.
 I've just put this glass next to a selection of old and newer ones on a white background. What a range of greys! The newest ones, as expected were obviously very light, one old glass was very much darker, but several including this were just pale grey. Oh and it rings fairly well!  Not sure.... but it still doesn't hit me as right. I thought early C20th copy, has the quality and feel of a good Edwardian glass. Just a hunch. I'll have to handle a few better quality glasses, my few old reference books, mainly in b&w just don't help enough.
The bubble does extend the whole length of the stem. It is the reflective nature of this, the twists and the honeycomb section that make the whole glass look more reflective and generally lighter. David

[oldglassman]

HI ,
            For all the reasons quoted above , metal colour ,lack of striations , twist form ,foot shape , pontil mark etc  I would think that your conclusions are correct , a very late 19thc or early 20thc copy in the style of an 18thc glass , I have over the years seen a few of these so am pretty confident that the suspicions are correct,

At the weekend I attended a day organised by the Glass Association with the 'Georgianglassmakers' in Quarley, www.georgianglassmakers.co.uk a superb day that demonstrated the construction methods of Heavy Balusters , light Balusters, air twists , opaque twists, colour twists , incised twists, etc , all being made before our eyes, the construction of opaque twists was the most interresting , confirming that the information found in most books on how they were made is completely wrong confirming the opinions I had had for many years about this . I would suggest anyone with an interrest in how they were made should if in the area pay them a visit and see the wonderful repros that they can produce , which i am sure would be an eye opener for many , they are the best modern repros that i have ever encountered and could to the less than educated eye fool many I am sure ,they do try to avoid this though by making them in a colour that is not quite right , a little to bright and the are all signed .

Cheers ,
             Peter.

[david31162]

Thank you Peter,
I really like the sound of your day out. If I lived near I think I'd sign up straight away. I like the sound of the glass blowing too, always wanted to have a go.
 On the subject of learning (and I'm not sure if I'm on the correct part of the forum for this). Where could I go to to learn more about old glass? (mainly C18th). I've been looking for a day out for my imminent significant birthday, but to no avail. I cant find any expert led courses, other than occasional lectures. You can only learn only so much from old books with mainly b+w photos. I've talked to a few dealers but only for a minute or 2, usually only after buying a piece.  I hate to take up valuable selling time at a fair. I've found the odd museum collection but they are out of reach behind glass.
Do you have any ideas?
David

[johnphilip]

 I have one similar  i have had it for a long time , when i first bought it i thought i had a gem , i showed it to a friend who was a Gaffer at a glass house he said straight away a nice early 20th century copy probably Stourbridge,,, we used to make some like that in the lunch break , a short time after we were in an Antique shop  there was a large - Victorian - !!! cranberry glass bell he said that is one of mine , he had told me about these about a year before , they used to make them for friends  to show off their skills and to teach the new boys .
Not to deceive as they gave them away .    not what you would call deceptive glass 

[oldglassman]

HI David ,
                    Books,museums etc all have limitations as you know,though they can provide invaluable information,for hands on availability of antique glass then it would have to be at 1 of the glass fairs ,most dealers with 18thc glass and older would be quite happy for you to handle and examine there stock and answer questions,glass fairs can be very busy in spurts so if you chose your moment you should find that most you talk to will be very helpfull,after all I believe it is still the case that most dealers were and still are collectors at heart and happy to share what knowledge they have gained over many years of collecting and dealing .

Cheers ,
             Peter.

[david31162]

Thank you Johnphillip , i bet there are many examples of 'Georgian' glass on sale that are much more recent. I've seen several late C19th early 20th catalogues showing pictures offerings of very convincing looking copies.
Thank you also Peter, I'll try the Cambridge glass fair again as that is fairly near to me . Do you know of any others in or near East Anglia?
David