Topic: Peacock Trailed Bowl ??

[Mike M]

Now this one is Harrach -without a doubt

[flying free]

Excellent Mike  I will add this link to my Stuart Harrach peacock thread for future reference
m

[Mike M]

and this one is Harrach too

cheers

M

[flying free]

Interesting!  it has a polished pontil mark on the base yes?  but the trails do not go under the base ?
I'd have said that was Stuart but the difference being the trails not going under the base and that the central 'eye' on the prunts stick out further than the one on my Stuart vase.
Also another observation, the Stuart vases have the prunts where the rim dips in, that last Harrach one you posted looks as though the prunts are where the curve sticks out?  And the prunts on the Stuart pieces seem to be nearer the rim in placement.

Modified to add - I've searched my Harrods catalogue 1907 pages which I believe could possibly be mostly Stuart pieces - unfortunately my theory on the prunt placement always being on the in dip of the in- and-out curves at the rim, works in most of the pieces shown (about 26 pieces) but I have spotted three where it looks as though the prunt is place on the outward curve - irritating!
m

[flying free]

Mike do you have any thoughts on this one?
I posted this link on the other thread
http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/370612102470?ru=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.ebay.co.uk%2Fsch%2Fi.html%3F_sacat%3D0%26_nkw%3D370612102470%26_rdc%3D1
m

[Mike M]

Hi

I can't claim to be an expert on these -I just happen to have a few hundred unquestionable Harrach photos. I took the photos but I did not have time to handle more than a tiny handfull of pieces.

There is one strange possibility, it is more than likely Harrach secretly made whole ranges of glass for other makers to sell as their own. They almost certainly made for Legras, they probably made for Fratelli Toso, it's not impossible that, for a time, they could have made for Stuart.

Also even if this is not the case it's quite likely Stuart employed workers that were formally from Harrach. The level of overlap may be much bigger than you think.

You've challenged the Truitt photos - I'd be very surprised if they were wrong - but I accept its not absolutely impossible - I believe almost all their photography was done in Czech Museums.

cheers

M

[flying free]

Thanks Mike, I wasn't questioning Truitts just for the sake of it...I think I've questioned all the photos somewhere along the line in both CH20th century British Glass and also Truitts with regards the Peacock eye trailed vases - because there are so many similarities in some of the pieces.  For example in CH 20th Century British Glass the comment that Charles H. has written underneath the picture does not state that the vases were made at Stuart, but says they were  'from a large collection saved from Stuart after they closed'.  That statement does not identify the vases as Stuart.  So whilst I was trying to identify my vase and some other pieces as well, I found that there was not definite information that I felt comfortable with. 

As an example, the last vase you put in the thread the clear with clear trails and just  the green eye in the prunt...that looks very similar to the vase in Gullivers Victorian Glass page 88 that is identified as being manufactured by Stuart.  The only rider being that with the tag in your picture laying across the top of the vase it is difficult to know how many curves it has at the top etc, (It looks as though it is 4 and it looks much smaller than the one in Gulliver's which has 6 and also it looks as though the trails do not go under the base whereas on the Gulliver's vase it's difficult to tell but it looks like they do)so difficult to compare details.  I suppose it might also depend on size of vase but the basic design looks remarkably similar I think.  Can you take a look at Gulliver's and check for me please if you get a moment?  And I suppose that proves the point that because of the similarities it might be difficult to tease out who made what when.

 I'm in no position to even be discussing this really I suppose, because I haven't seen the Stuart pattern books and neither have I been to Harrach and seen all the wonderful information that you have (so I guess I should butt out and stop questioning really).  I have now corrected a statement I made questioning Truitt's in the Legras thread.   However I am interested to find out who made what, especially when it comes to identifying the quite a few vases I now have that have peacock eye prunts and trails.  And that information did not seem to be available on the board or elsewhere (for example these vases being called Cairngorm when  I wasn't sure they really were called that) without some level of possible contradiction, which is why I started discussing it.  It wasn't my intention to open a can of worms  but to try and find information that helped id my vases - one in particular that isn't even Stuart I'm pretty sure

m

[petet63]

I cant really comment as it is the first piece I have found but will keep my eyes open in future as they are very nice. (Sadly as usual I had to list mine and ZBS Piece : ( but needs must.  I think the 'debate' on this and other pieces I have read on here are a big part of being the best way to get an answer. Making a point or questioning another is not saying they are wrong at all it is only asking for clarity. How else do answers get found ? and it helps me a lot because of all the knowledge and time the members on here give. Thanks GMB !!!
 Please feel free to use the pictures I put up. I might have some more pictures from different angles if needed.

[flying free]

I thought I should also add here for reference as I have done on the other thread -
this was one of the seeming discrepancies that made me query Truitt's
the tall Peacock eye trailed vase here on the Style and Design site is identified as Stuart (you need to scroll down to the group shot to see the tall vase) http://www.stylendesign.co.uk/guidepages/estoz1.html
This  appears to me to be the same vase as the vase in Truitt's Bohemian Glass 1880-1940 page 67 top plate, tallest vase, identified as Harrach. 
Style and Design have stated
" Peacock Trails" (Cairngorm), Arts and Crafts styles by Stuart, from the start of the 20th century. Frequently attributed Harrach. Bohemian glass in this style is thinner and has no polished pontil. (There are reference book errors in this area of collecting)."
 However, they do not give a pattern no or reference for their identification that these are Stuart. 
And since Mike has added a vase that is a Harrach peacock eye trail vase and  appears to have a polished pontil mark, that possibly gives cause for question on the reference on Style and Design that these are Stuart vases.

m