Topic: ID help with classical style vase please

[flying free]

see post above
and also
the one on the top left of the picture has the greek key design like yours though it is interspersed it seems by  a square of different decor intermittently and it also has the u shaped curves with black bands above and below.  It also has the exact same 'wave' design as your right round the top of the rim and also around the edge of the foot as yours does.

Indeed, I would say it might be good for you to investigate work by Mr Giller on Etruscan vases for Webb.  That would be my starting point and I think there is a good chance that is where your vase might originate.  But can't say for sure of course as these are design devices that might easily be copied.  The vases seem to all  be in a similar vein to yours though, white, quite finely done in design of the shapes and finish and two pieces seems to have a swirl like yours, that seems to curl away from the main picture - like a bit of extra decor on the body of the vase.
It's a definite possible I'd say.
I might have the originals of those Art pages somewhere in my files, I've got some I know.  I'll have a scout through and see if it's those pages then I might be able to read what was said.
Please could we have a larger close up pic of the decoration on your vase, both top rim, bottom again and all the picture round the vase?
Many thanks
m

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wow m, you've been busy thank you. I will get my other half to use his camera this eve and get some better pics for you.

thank you for taking the time to look up the references for me

will get some more pics uploaded soon

cheers, Mel

[flying free]

Amazingly I do have the original pages from the Art-Union 
I will add some further info in exchange for lovely big clear pics of the decoration 
m

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you're on!

[neilh]

If you look at plate 105 in Hajdamach's book on 19th century British glass you will see a black on white design attributed to Molineaux Webb. The shape of vase is a bit different and no Greek Key, but it does indicate these cannot all be attributed to Stourbridge firms if English.

[flying free]

Neil hi, I did look at that one first because it has a vaguely similar shape to Mel's.
There are lots of different makers for these vases.

I could be wrong but I feel Mel's is most probably a Webb blank decorated by Mr Giller if CH's reference is correct.
I also own one of these Etruscan vases and it was made by Harrach. 
I have the original Art-Union magazine pages of this article that has been reprinted  and have been able to read the descriptions of the vases as well.  There is something particular in the description that I believe also ties Mel's vase to this group :0 but I'm not divulging until we get more pics lol. 
The one thing that is slightly different in Mel's vase is the picture.  The ones in the article are less 'free-hand painted' looking, and more stylised and they all look as though they have sgraffito decoration on them.  Hence my asking for better pics.
m

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testing...........................

edited to add .. 1st 2 seem ok, 2nd 2 seem a bit odd to open but i've loaded them twice now and same result - help?!

Mel

[flying free]

Mel lovely pics.
Sorry for the delay but I've been trying to work out what to include and what not.

Etruscan vases info taken from
Art-Union journal 1847 – reported article titled
ETRUSCAN FORMS &c. IN OPALESCENT GLASS (note it refers to them as opalescent glass.  I don’t think they are what we would call opalescent though)

-   Firstly your picture of your lady does not appear to be the same style as the painting on the group of pieces page 138 in the Art-Union journal, but the vase and the graphic borders and  decoration definitely does. It says  in the article
‘The subjects engraved (I think the report is referring to the engravings they made to print in the article, not that the vases are engraved) are selected with a view to dissimilarity of form and purpose as much as possible; they are, however, but a few of the many in circulation : and we have no doubt that ultimately they will be followed by others still more meritorious; for success cannot fail to prompt to renewed exertions. 
The subjects at present introduced are principally from the Hamiltonian collection, varying in degrees of artistic merit according to the dates at which they were produced.’
In other words I think yours may be from another ‘range’or source of inspiration.  I had a quick look at various Etruscan style pictures of dance form, and yours fits in well with something like that and some of those pictures.

-   In discussing the first vase which has the most in common with yours in terms of the graphic borders etc (which are the same), it says
 ‘ The brilliant effect of the black ornaments upon this vase, relieved, as they are, by small portions of dark red, is very striking and vivid’.  Which fits the colours on your vase as well. 

-   With regards the black wave like stylised border on your vase which is the same as on the vase I described earlier as well,  it says of a cup (wine glass shape I think it’s referring to) that has the same border
‘The drinking-cup is ornamented with a simple band, exhibiting a not uncommon Etruscan pattern, and which is sometimes used to indicate water – much in the manner of the hieroglyphics of Egypt

-   Interesting information regarding the decoration on the vases. 
It says earlier in the actual Art Union article ‘In offering to the attention of our readers the examples of the vases produced by MR GILLER of Bartlett’s Buildings, Holborn * we may congratulate ourselves….’
Then the asterisked paragraph is explained thus
‘ *Although Mr Giller has the merit of introducing this very beautiful novelty on ground, or opaque, glass, with the Greek form and ornament, he is not, strictly speaking, the manufacturer;  the glass is made at Stourbridge by W. Thomas Webb, whose WORKS are fully described and illustrated in the “Art Union” (April 1846), and the figures and other ornaments are pencilled on the glass at the establishment of Messrs. BATTAM AND SON, of Gough Square.’
Therefore it seems, Webb  made the blanks, Battam and Sons drew the pictures and Mr Giller painted them ?
 In CH book caption under the picture page 138 it says ‘decorated by Mr Giller’.

- In describing the glass it says
'These vases, &c are imitations or those executed in Greece and Etruria; like the Portland Vase they are of glass, of the purest white; the outer portion being of rough texture, producing the most delicate character.'

I hope this is interesting
m

[flying free]

Edited to add

Actually I do wonder if your vase might be from the same range?  It's very difficult to tell, with the wear to the enamels on your picture of the lady, what she would have looked like if all the outline was in place.  Also it's trying to compare your vase picture with an engraving done to print for the article, so the depiction on the engraving looks very stylised and it's also hard to tell as the engraving is printed in black and white, exactly which bits are in colour.  On the one I compared yours to as the closest it has red in it as yours does.  On another it has red and black plus yellow and lilac for example.  It talks in the article of the white body of the vase being used as a 'third' colour on the red and black vases, but it is hard to know as the pictures similar show as engravings if you see what I mean?
And also, on another vase there is a lady playing a double flute that has bands of colour it seems around the bottom of her skirt or dress as yours does.
m

[flying free]

sorry, I'm adding here as I go along but I do think your vase is likely from the same range.
It looked 'free-hand' painted in the original pics because of the wear to the enamelling around the outlines of the picture, but looking at the close up shot I think it is the same as the ones depicted.  Just that they didn't choose your vase to depict.
m