Topic: Blue and white overlay vase - vine and grapes decoration - enamel?

[flying free]

actually I'm going to be very bold here and say I think mine and that pink one have definitely been engraved by the same hand!
I'll do some more searching now on the shape of that goblet  - thanks so much for finding it.
m

[Baked_Beans]

Oh great !! So pleased I can be of help for once 

You can  really see the detail in the leaves just by clicking on the photo ...they even have the same highlights as on your leaves !

Cheers, Mike.

[flying free]

they do!  I'm so happy thank you - at last I have something else to go on.
I have set a side by side photo of it with the two bechers and it's still possible becher 2, the smaller one, is the same hand, although the photo isn't that good.  Becher 1 may or may not be (the Nagel, then sold Fischer 14cm one) but the photograph is not good enough to tell.
m

[flying free]

Both my new books are now here. 
I'm having a great difficulty 'sorting' out who did what for a number of reasons:

a) online attributions are not always what I would attribute them as having looked at the books and the references  - it seems as though sometimes a name (Franz Zach mostly) has just been plucked out the air and used as a reference rather than really looking at the comparisons of the piece to the ones id'd in the books.

b) it would help greatly to have all of them lined up in front of me (online and those in the books) to compare - it's one of those instances where seeing the item in the flesh would be  helpful because of the subtle differences in the engraving techniques.

c) the printing in the books, 'smoothes' out the nuances of the engraving making it difficult to see detail in some instances and rather irritatingly, the books only give one view, the front, of the piece and no base shot either (my particularly bug bear with buying books - authors please note, it's really helpful to include base shots!)

d) I'm trying to compare double overlay cameo v single overlay cameo and the effect is definitely not quite the same so you have to look harder at the engraving technique and the shapes of the cameo vines for example to spot similarities.

An example of the difficulty being that I think it's possible the engraver of my piece was the same as this one here
http://www.auktion-bergmann.de/ufItemInfo.aspx?a_id=78&i_id=209674&s_id=6104
However... that linked piece is attributed to Franz Zach and I think it might be Karl Pfohl    to me it as similarities with plate 111.76 stangenpokal mit Berber und Lowin and the blank and foot of the piece with plate 111.80 of Das Bohmische Glas band III

There are no pictures at all in any of the books (of which I now have a goodly clutch), of triple layer cameo such as my vine and grapes or the stein, becher and tazza linked to on this thread.

There are two Karl Pfohl pieces done on triple layer blue over white over clear in Das Bohmische Glas Band III, they are 'medallion portraits' with no foliage unfortunately.  There are no Franz Zach pieces.9

There is one more potential name to add to this list - in Das Bohmische Glas band II page 69, there is a tall goblet attributed to Anton Heinrich Pfeiffer. 111.77
m

[Baked_Beans]

Have you managed to date the pink stein (possibly the blue one as well) & pink compot yet ? I think they have to have been made at the same location / time as your piece and engraved by the same engraver (or team of engravers) .   

Ta, Mike.

[flying free]

I haven't managed to date them by reference but in my own head, at the moment,  I think they are probably 1855/60 - they are triple layer glass (dates to around that time frame I think) and beautifully done and the cameo technique used is one used in that period.
 
I think the technique from what I read was used later on around the turn of the century, but the example given in Spiegl's book notes what I said before - which is something I think along the lines of, 'the engraver was not familiar with the technique' - i.e. as far as I can tell it's not a detailed executed  piece and doesn't fit in with all these in terms of style and quality of execution.

I think the pink compote and my flakon, the pink  stein and one of the bechers were definitely engraved by the same hand rather than a team - unsure about the other becher and stein as the leaves are not quite 'there' in terms of a match.
I've found a pink double overlay piece by Josephinenhutte, yet to find a 'matching' pink by Harrach, but I'm still suspecting these came from Harrach.

I think it's possible this one came from the same factory and was possibly engraved by the same hand. 
http://www.auktion-bergmann.de/ufItemInfo.aspx?a_id=78&i_id=209674&s_id=6104
however, it's attributed to Franz Zach and I think it's possible it may have been done by Karl Pfohl - I'm not definite about their attribution having looked at their reference plates.
The blue is a very good match for mine - and something about the way it has been cut looks familiar.  Strangely, matching the blue has been difficult, partly because of photo representation, partly because there were quite a few lighter blues rather than this glowing deep cobalt blue.

But that's as far as I've got   I very much appreciate your input and interest so thank you.
m

[Baked_Beans]

I think the compote is the key ....find out how old it is and you have answered most of your questions. 

[flying free]

In the Nagel auction books there is a pink overlay over white over clear becher.  It is specifically identified as Neuwelt (where other Bechers are for example simply denoted 'Bohemian').  The pink looks slightly brighter than the compote however with printing and lighting on pics I suppose it's difficult to tell.  Dated c.1850.  Next to it there is a blue (same as my vase) over white over clear Becher actually inscribed with a date of 1852.  So I think my time frame is 'mid 19th century' or thereabouts.
I've also just realised something.  The pink compote you link to has round cut outs that I think are similar to something called 'Harrach windows' on Brian's Harrach site.  Obviously anyone could have done large roundel cut - outs but it's a possible link.

edited to add...not the same technique as described on the Harrach site for the 'Windows' vases (see link) but the top one is in a pink albeit that it looks a different shade to the compote- Mod: Link removed as content changed to inappropriate site


m

[Baked_Beans]

This photo is really interesting because it shows close detail of the surface etching.....(zoom in to see)

 http://www.sothebys.com/en/auctions/ecatalogue/2011/property-from-the-collection-of-carl-desantis/lot.206.lotnum.html

[flying free]

yes I have that one saved as possibly the same maker as mine (and the pink footed bowl)
There were a number of pieces sold in that person's collection that are this technique.

thank you for continuing to look two pairs of eyes are better than one.
m