Topic: Etruscan vase bright azure blue opaline c1850,what is the picture,which country?

[keith]

These should be ok,have included an opaline 'carafe' as it has similar decor,

[flying free]

thanks so much  - has the salt a large round polished pontil mark with a very fine stand rim around the outside rim edge of the base?
I've had a look at the carafe on the  other thread as well - I'll post on there when I get a few mins.
m

[keith]

Hadn't noticed before but yes,the pontil mark is very shallow,polished and with a narrow rim,

[flying free]

thanks - apart from the large polished pontil mark, the other two reasons I thought they were French was because of the opaline colour and also that Daum produced salts in this shape ... I thought the shape seemed to be a 'French' one.
However, I've found a shallow rectangular dish that has a similar cut rim that is id'd as Bohemian in one of my books.  It's uncertain as to whether the blue is identical to that of my salt of course, because they aren't side by side, however it also has what looks like white or off white enamel with gilding over it ... not the same pattern as yours as far as I can see though also difficult to tell.

Your opaline carafe has a strange see through neck?  is it cased ?  or is it my eyesight.  I think I've seen a similar pattern enamel vine leaves and grapes then gilded, on pieces of Harrach glass, but I don't think they were opaline.  I think they were cased and maybe even cut to clear.  I'll try and find a reference but I think they must have been in some museum photographs I found.  I've not time at the mo, but I will research my books and links and come back if I find something.
The thot plickens.
m

[keith]

The neck is a bit odd,to be honest it looks like the original was broken and replaced,you can just feel a 'cut' around the neck where the opaline ends and the clear part begins,

[flying free]

oooh that's interesting!   is it definitely glass at the 'replacement' bit?  or could it be resin?

this is the blue opaline vase with the wavy cut rim identified as Baccarat.  You can see that the enamelling pattern is different though.  The gilded over enamel pattern looks quite 'neat'.  Now I've been able to see yours and this Baccarat one a bit more clearly, I don't think the 'off white' enamel is the same type of stuff as that which has been used for the picture on my vase - 'think' is the operative word though as that is just judgement based on trying very hard to compare on photos.
http://www.antiquecolouredglass.info/images/Baccarat%20turquoise%20opaline%20glass%20vase.jpg

m

[keith]

Had to go back and have another look at the vase,forgotten what it looked like ,as you say the colours and design are different,the 'Baccarat' is a plain blue throughout your vase and my pieces have a 'cloudy' look to the glass,if you know what I mean.
                    The neck on the carafe is glass and despite maybe a replacement the gilding seems to match colourwise to the original so...?

[flying free]

Keith I've searched masses of opaline Bohemian glass and found many pieces with the type of decoration on, as is on your salt.
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3166363  one example
and just for you
http://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/3166403
I also found two larger bowls in a similar shape in the Harrach book.  It says not many pieces were made in that shape but also id's one as being used for bread.
I've also found opaline glass with a similar type line decoration to mine, one or two pieces.
I think both yours and mine are Bohemian.  mmmm - interesting.
m

[keith]

Those are very similar,thanks for looking,don't think mine had a lid,bit too small,I'll have to group all my opaline pieces together and photo them,

[flying free]

going back to my original vase

I believe this was produced by Richardson and quite possibly enamelled by Mr Giller!


Bear with me, I could be completely wrong on this but my instinct is this 

Explanation:

Decoration -
I've been wondering about the various decorations on Mel's vase(http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,51033.msg289101.html#msg289101), which I believe is a vase  by W.Thomas Webb(source Art Union Magazine 1847) and painted by Mr Giller.  I also wondered about  a vase that Art of Glass has on Flickr and has attributed also as a Webb vase painted by Mr Giller ( http://www.flickr.com/photos/art-of-glass/sets/72157627592071579/ )  .   I do think that they both are from W. Thomas Webb and painted by Mr Giller, given the description and engraved pictures available from the Art- Union magazine June 1847.

So, looking as closely as I can at details on their vases and also on Keith's vase (http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=51033.0;attach=121081;image ) ( btw I also think Keith's vase is from Mr Giller and part of the W.Thomas Webb produced vases) and the way the black is put onto the vase particularly on the border decorations, as well as looking at the details of the vases in the Art-Union journal dated 1847,  for a while I've been idly wondering whether my blue vase has been decorated by Mr Giller. 

Some of the border decoration is remarkably similar to the depictions in the Art-Union magazine, and the way the black is put on the vase also seems very similar in close up comparing it  to Mel's and Keith's and also Art of Glass' vase. 

Shape -
The foot of my vase is quite similar to the foot of Art of Glass' vase. I've also pontificated previously in this  thread about the similarities a Richardson vase has to mine in terms of cup shaped rim and the type of  opaline. The ones I linked to before are here and the largest is 25cm and the medium 22cm in this group (mine is 29.5cm)
http://www.britishmuseum.org/research/collection_online/collection_object_details.aspx?objectId=3331858&partId=1&searchText=Richardson+vase&page=1

 Etruscan vases were around for a good 15 years in vogue as far as I can see from the Harrach book ( popularity possibly waned around 1862 ish?)and were clearly in vogue during the great Exhibition of 1851 from what has been written about them.  That would be 4 years on from the depiction in the Art Union magazine, so shapes will have changed, developed etc. which I think could account for Mel's shaped vase and the Art of Glass vase, as well as  Keith's vase not being depicted in the Art-Union article... and obviously they couldn't depict all the shapes I would think, although there are 8 versions in the article.

So I've been wondering, if the Art Union magazine says their shapes (1847) were produced by W. Thomas Webb,  where Mr W.Thomas Webb was working in 1847 and about his  link with Richardson's? And also the fact that they must have both been producing Etruscan vases at around that time,  and in coloured opalines, as they were competing with the Bohemian manufacturers at that time in terms of coloured glass.
Link here which explains some of this background but doesn't say he was working under his own name at that point -
http://gorgeousglass.org.uk/webb/
'In 1829, Thomas Webb I began his glass career working for the Richardson brothers as one of the partners in the business. He worked at the Wordsley Flint Glassworks until deciding to branch out on his own in 1836. To begin with he based himself, nearby at the White House Works before moving onto the Platts Glassworks in Amblecote. By 1951 they were producing both coloured and flint glass. Some of their products were exhibited at the Great Exhibition.
Thomas finally settled down at the Dennis Glassworks in Amblecote in 1855 where he opened the ‘Thomas Webb’s Glassworks’.'

so I am not sure where W.Thomas Webb would have been to have been classed in Art-Union magazine dated 1847 as ''the glass is made at Stourbridge by W.THOMAS WEBB, whose Works are fully descibred and illustrated in the'Art-Union' (April 1846)...'

And I came to the conclusion that it's a distinct possibility that my vase was produced either by W. Thomas Webb, or by Richardson (bearing in mind cup shape similarities to Richardson vases  etc)

Eventually I came across this 

http://www.cmog.org/artwork/acid-etched-vase

this vase is 30.5cm high and 13cm diameter
Mine has a slightly different shaped foot but is 29.5cm high and 13 cm diameter.
There are differences - I think the linked vase has a slightly longer neck.  It also apparently has a rough pontil mark with iron left on it.  Mine has an open applied foot pushed onto the bottom of the vase body shape and is beautifully finished with the foot rim and neck rim, seemingly very thick and fire polished.  In the case of the foot rim, it's either been fire polished or so beautifully ground that there isn't a flat or bevelled edge to be seen.

quick link to mine for comparison
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=53085.0;attach=132744;image

Here is another one at the CMOG, it says transfer printed decoration and it has a shiny opaline finish.  It is the same shape as the one I just linked to above but dimensions are slightly different at 30.5cm high by 12.8cm diameter.

http://www.cmog.org/artwork/vase-762?sm_actor_name=W.%20H.%2C%20B.%20%26%20J.%20Richardson&goto=node/51200&filter=%22bundle%3Aartwork%22&sort=score%20desc%2Cbs_has_image%20desc%2Cbs_on_display%20desc&object=2

I then also found this which is remarkably similar to Mel's in terms of shape and size
http://www.cmog.org/artwork/vase-1457?sm_actor_name=W.%20H.%2C%20B.%20%26%20J.%20Richardson&goto=node/51200&filter=%22bundle%3Aartwork%22&sort=score%20desc%2Cbs_has_image%20desc%2Cbs_on_display%20desc&object=4

I'm wondering where W.Thomas Webb produced his vases for the Art-Union magazine and whether or not he and Richardson's were copying each other, with the Richardson's versions either also being decorated at Mr Giller's or copying his decorations in-house?

I think mine originated at Richardson's and was either decorated there or by Mr Giller.  My feelings are that it was decorated by Mr Giller.
 

A very happy m

p.s. mind you, it's a bit worrying they have a vase/bowl that seems to me to be a piece of Loetz Octopus glass (3rd row down left hand side) assigned as Richardson
http://www.cmog.org/collection/search?sm_actor_name=W.%20H.%2C%20B.%20%26%20J.%20Richardson