Topic: Zwischengold salt 1700's/1800's early pressed glass?

[Ivo]

Think Mozart for the era.

[flying free]

This portrait salt has similar gilding around it to the gilding on my flowers (La Granja) salt - i.e. what looks like three leaves, then a berry, then three leaves then a berry  design. 

http://www.antiques.com/classified/Antique-Glass-/Misc--Antique-Glass/Antique-German-glass-salt-with-portrait--late-18th-century

Ivo, the Mozart link might be why they are thought of as German/Bohemian, because Mozart is probably the most commonly known figure for that era?
There is always the option that they could have been made in more than one place of course.  And of course, that the engraved design could be copied/similar. I seem to recall a discussion on here re designs found on La Granja (?) glasses are also found on Bohemian (?)glasses as thought they were copied from a catalogue of designs.

However, regardless, they are very rare now, I don't often see a portrait salt at all and I've never ever seen another green flowers salt apart from one which I thought might be the same one possibly.

I'm wondering about the Corning research - i.e.whether the green used in mine (actually blue specks I think) is made in a similar way to the red they are researching.

Edited to add -
hmm, I've found a description of a journey someone took in 2003
GLASS NOTES & OTHER MUSINGS FROM A RHINE-MAIN-DANUBE RIVER TRIP
(August 28-September 12, 2003)

http://archiver.rootsweb.ancestry.com/th/read/BURGENLAND-NEWSLETTER/2003-10/1067600365
within their description they say about the Glasmuseum Wertheim they found eight of the portrait salts id'd as Bohemian -

'Later we visited
the Glassmuseum Wertheim which had thousands of interesting items. Among them
were eight "doppelwand" (double wall) salts of the type known to open salt
collectors (we have four). They were displayed as Bohemian and attributed to the
period 1770. I believe we have now positively identified this type salt as
Bohemian of this period. This is the third such attribution we've encountered in
Europe. '
 
Interesting ... there is no source for the assertion by the Museum that they are Bohemian. Not to say they aren't of course.  But museums have sometimes the incorrect label on things.  otoh, it might indicate they were made in more than one place?

Mods - the person's article is copyrighted - could you remove the quote and link above if it's not allowed please?  Thank you.

m

[flying free]

Interesting opinion on La Granja glass from the book Glass by Edward Dillon published 1907
page 250

'Before the end of the seventeenth century, the general decline so noticeable in all the industries of Spain spread, it would seem, to the glass-works. Workmen were now obtained chiefly from the Low Countries, and in addition much glass was imported by sea from Antwerp. To how low a state the glass industry had fallen at this time may be inferred from the fact that orders for ‘Mexico and the Indies’ had to be executed abroad. In the next century, when Spain had lost her Flemish possessions, their place as a source of glass-ware was taken by France. Philip V., about the year 1720, founded a royal glass manufactory near his summer palace of La Granja de S. Ildefonso, and workmen were gathered together from all sources—there were Germans and Swedes as well as Frenchmen. These works were above all established, in rivalry to St. Gobain (p. 235), for the preparation of large mirrors of plate-glass, but all sorts of ‘hollow ware’ were also produced there. This later Spanish glass, made to royal order, is, however, utterly devoid of any interest, and it need not detain us.'
(My underlining)
If only he knew about the GMB 

m

[flying free]

on the questions of:
Where they were made?
and
Are they called Zwischengold?

In the Passau museum I have seen a photograph.  It's a poor quality image and angled so cannot see the designs on the salts,  but is of the small collection of 9 salts ( I wonder if it is the same collection referred to in the report I quoted a few posts above).

The salts are all layed out in the cabinet in portrait position leading me to believe that the designs on them are either portrait shaped designs (may or may not be miniature portrait people pictures) or are random graphics which enable  the salts to be set in portrait position  - i.e. not like my flowers and basket picture which would look strange displayed in portrait position rather than landscape.

Two of the salts appear to be similar in shape to my flowers and basket salt shape - but the design appears to be on red and does not appear to be the same design as mine, it looks like spaced blobs so may be single flower head perhaps spaced out on the salt.  The others appear to be similar in shape to my portrait salt.

At the time the pic was taken 4 years ago they were in Room 1 Vitrine 2.

The information at the Passau on the cabinet is:

1) The title plaque for that display says - 'Schwarzlot und ZwischengoldMalerei, Bohmen-Schlesien 1700-1780' 

 -so the salts are in the cabinet titled Zwischengold

2) The plaque that describes that shelf says of it - 'Unten: Spiegel, Schale, Salzbecher und Kreuz  -   geschliffen, mit Eglomise-Technik, 1730-1780.'

- so the salts in that cabinet date up to 1780 and are described not only under Zwischengold but also as Eglomise-Technik.

- Eglomise-Technik is translated from Wiki description as

'Eglomisé

Eglomisé (French: Verre églomisé) is the name for its own technology in the glass painting with the help of paint colors.
Even in the period of late antiquity (4th century. N. Chr.) Dates back to the beginning of this technique. However, the name refers to the French painter and art dealer Jean-Baptiste Glomy (1711-1786), who in the 18th century the art revitalized, whereupon it reached its perfection in France, Italy, Bohemia and mainly in Southern Germany. In the 19th century it came under repeated use of certain motifs and representations to a kind of mass production.
In the actual art glass panels are on one side painted with paints and then scraped by the artist ornaments or pictorial representations, usually in fine, precise hand of this lacquer surface. The thus created open spaces are designed with gold or silver foil. In the first half of the 18th century, this technique was also taken up by mainly Bohemian glassmakers. This glass mug and other glass drinking vessels were inside lined with wrought gold foils which different motifs (such as representations of hunting, gallant or courtly scenes), finely carved showed. To protect the film inside of these glasses, the so-called intermediate gold glasses, another glass has been used in an exact fit.
In later works, such as the late 19th century, specially prepared (painted) gold or silver foils were applied to the back of the glass plates.
References [edit]
WB HONEY, Verre E., in: The Connoisseur XCII, 1933, p 372-382
G. Swarzenski, Verre E., in: The Journal of the Walters Art Gallery, 1940 S. 55
F. ZAUCHI ROPPO, Vetri Paleocristiani a figure d'oro, Bologna 1969
The large art encyclopedia of PW Hartmann: "Eglomisé"'

[Robin G]

New to this message board. Has there been any additional research or comments since 2015? I collect open salts, and have about 7 of these "dopplewand" salts (the term usually used by fellow salt collectors) with the red background. But I agree that zwichengold is a better term. We have always assumed they were Bohemian, probably late 1700s. I bought mine in the US and the UK, but have seen them in museums in Europe, other collections, and books. I lost my photos of the Passau museum, and can't really remember if I saw some there, like the traveler and salt collector who wrote about his 2003 trip. Your green piece is great. I had never heard of La Granja glass and am now trying to learn about it. I also sat at Corning for a while trying to research this subject. Maybe it was there that I read that the red, or whatever color is on the bottom was actually the adhesive, definitely not pot-colored glass. Thanks for your post.

[Paul S.]

hello Robin - welcome to the GMB.       In the absence of any further comments attached to this thread then I suspect that what you see remains the current thinking on this particular material.          We've had plenty posts and opinions on plain clear glass salts over the years, but these are different entirely, and probably attract the attention of far fewer people.                   No doubt m (flying free) will tell me if I'm wrong
Regret these are not an area of personal interest, other than the fact that I picked up a matching pair some years back - probably from a boot sale or antiques market - don't now remember, and always possible I've posted these on the Board previously.

Seeing my own in the flesh so to speak, my thoughts are that the silver and gold decoration is created by foils of some description - the material appears too thick to be real leaf, and the silver outlines look too intricate to have been painted, but no doubt since this is your area you will have a far better knowledge than me.       As to the red colour, my thoughts are that this is in the form of an ink, but again I'm unsure.

Apart from some edge bevelling, I was going to say that mine were entirely moulded, but looked at under a loupe there appear to be remains of grinding marks on some of the surfaces  -  although no doubt in the first place the shape is simply a moulded blank.
On the underside, the oval insert remains proud of the main surface by at least 1 mm or perhaps a tad more.

As to provenance, date or geographical origin, regret I've no idea - other than suggesting that mine have a second half C19 look, and possibly Bohemian.

[flying free]

Mine was confirmed as La Granja by someone who'd visited the museum iirc.

The Corning are/were researching the red colour used to cover the gilded decoration (see previous links).

m

[flying free]

Paul I'm not sure your description of the red colour as an ink is right.  I can't remember the details but this is what the Corning are researching i.e.  the constituent of the red colour iirc.  I thought I'd put a link to the Corning research but I haven't.  I'll have a look for it now and post if I find it again.

m

[Paul S.]

you may well be correct m - the red on mine could well be created by something else ................  though its appearance gave the impression of how an ink might perform i.e.  something with a very low viscosity akin to a stain or dye perhaps.                  But the glue has lasted well

[Robin G]

Thanks, Paul & m. I'm away from home and cannot edit my photos. I had wanted to show you some of my salts. One interesting one looks like the normal painted/foiled design on a red stained background but when you turn it over and look at the disc side it appears green Don't know what properties would account for that. Will post pic in next 48 hrs