Topic: Zoude

[Belgian_glass]

Good Morning Stuart

Did you manage to find the first book in a matter of minutes? I'm impressed! It took me months to find it.

I'm a Belgian and try to concentrate my collection on Belgian glass. I started off 1.5 years ago collecting Vonêche (1802-1830), but then my attention shifted to 18th century glass. Zoude and Nizet make wonderful research material.
What is your interest?

Raf

[Antwerp1954]

Hi Belgian Glass

My interest is anything before 1830. I started off with English glass but then bought a Hessen glass and immediately was hooked on continental glass.

It might be best to email me at sfgraveston@hotmail.com

Stuart

[flying free]

Belgian-glass thank you for posting these pictures.
I have one of these sets

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=56023.0;attach=172414;image

I don't think mine is lead crystal.  It glows a faint yellow colour under UV and doesn't have a ring really.
So according to the picture above, that basket is dated c.1762.
I had mine tentatively named as Liege because of a reference in a Felice Mehlman book.
I suppose I'm just wondering if Nizet (Liege) were making lead crystal very early in the 18th, and Zoude not until 1762, then perhaps my set if not lead, might be Zoude from Namur?  Is it possible to separate them like this - or were Nizet using both lead and non-lead?

I have just worked my way through a large collection of glass from the Musee du Verre
and couldn't see anything like my set.
There were these pieces listed as production Liege
http://balat.kikirpa.be/timthumb.php?src=http://balat.kikirpa.be/image/thumbnail/A116352.jpg&w=450&zc=2&cc=f0f0f0
http://balat.kikirpa.be/timthumb.php?src=http://balat.kikirpa.be/image/thumbnail/A116389.jpg&w=450&zc=2&cc=f0f0f0
and this and similar larger forms listed as 'Liege or Namur?'
http://balat.kikirpa.be/timthumb.php?src=http://balat.kikirpa.be/image/thumbnail/A116367.jpg&w=450&zc=2&cc=f0f0f0

but none the same as mine.

m

[flying free]

When I said 'one of these sets' in the post above the link doesn't appear to work although I thought I did a image url to the link - so mine is like the second set down on this post
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,56023.msg336832.html#msg336832

and then there is this which I've just found

It was formerly in the collection of the Musee du Verre and now in the Grand Curtius.  Identified as 'Verrerie Nizet, Liège, debut 18e siècle'
It isn't the same 'knit' or design as mine or the one posted earlier in the thread though 

https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Corbeille_et_plateau_(Verrerie_Nizet,_Li%C3%A8ge,_debut_18e_si%C3%A8cle),_Grand_Curtius,_Li%C3%A8ge.JPG

I suppose I'm now wondering if mine might be early 18th from Nizet given it is not lead glass, or middle 18th before 1762 from Zoude, or did both Nizet and Zoude make lead and non lead at the same time?
Also, the plates I've managed to find identified as 'Liege' all have the pinched knit as the outer rim of the plate, whereas mine has a plain rim to finish off the knit as it were, in the same way as the bowl and the same the plate in the Felice Mehlman book I think.  I wonder if that denotes a different time period or a different maker?

m

[flying free]

This is what I mean re the rim - an example of a set with the bowl in the right knit and the plate having the knit as the outer edge rather than it having a finishing single plain strand of glass around the rim to finish it off.

http://www.ventes-elysee.com/Page_description.asp?sale=12&dayid=426&lotx=1&loty=495&id=384505&page_nbr=23

[Belgian_glass]

Hi flying free

Sorry for having answered before. I'm only seeing your posts now.

Since I had the discussion with Antwerp1954 I learnt some things. The most important thing is that the Zoude Catalogue is probably a fake by Raymond Chambon (1922-1976), who was unmasked as a forger by Janette Lefrancq (Annales du 17e Congrès de l'Association Internationale pour l'Histoire du Verre (2009), pp. 339 - 343). Doubts about the authenticity of the Catalogue were already raised by Watts and Tait (Journal of Glass Studies (2007), pp. 153 - 165). This is a very inconvenient truth, because some of Chambon's "findings" were so spectacular that they have been eagerly adopted in many books about historic glass and are still believed valid by many today.

Openwork baskets were featured in the Catalogue, but their production in Namur is also attested by other, contemporary sources, including in the early period 1755-1762. From my experience there are indeed two types of baskets:
1. The ones with pinched, U-shaped knit in bright colourless glass which seems to contain (some) lead. These have a thick moulded base. Because they also have some applications under the moulded base, they have pontil marks on either sides of the base.
2. The less carefully executed ones with V-shaped knit with a yellow-greyish tinge. These contain no lead and have a thin base with pontil mark only at the bottom side.
If you ask me, https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Corbeille_et_plateau_(Verrerie_Nizet,_Li%C3%A8ge,_debut_18e_si%C3%A8cle),_Grand_Curtius,_Li%C3%A8ge.JPG is a set of non-matching items of both types, of which the attribution "early 18th century" is very uncertain.

At this moment we cannot assign either of both types to Liège or Namur. On the one hand, Zoude in Namur is known to have produced ordinary greenish and "white" glass besides his lead glass. On the other hand, it is also possible that Nizet in Liège started using full lead glass a bit later than Zoude in Namur.

Either the U-type was a more evolved version of the V-type, or the U-type was a more luxurious version of the V-type.

[flying free]

Thank you.  Watts and Tait makes very interesting and intriguing reading.

I shall wait and see what transpires eventually.  Meanwhile my basket and plate remains my most beautiful piece of glass.  Looks amazing with light on it, very glittery and sparkly.

m

[Belgian_glass]

It's a wonderful matching set. It took great skills and a lot of time to make this.