Topic: Green rummers - German or British?

[Ivo]

I associate this very dark green colour with British mid 19th century - but could be German as well. Other German rummers I have are much lighter in tone...  Cut and polished rim, open blown foot, both glasses have a different height so handwork it must be. There is a band of carefully engraved vines along the rim.

Anyone?

[Antwerp1954]

Ivo

I find this sort of glass impossible to date. Do you know of any book or source which can aid in dating these types of glass?

[Paul S.]

my opinion is that this colour is capable of a wider date line than just the middle of the C19.    Dark green is seen commonly on those small r.f. clear stemmed glasses from second half C19 (for white wine or pale sherry) - also many of the conical/trumpet/tulip bowls (for port apparently) from the late Geo. and Regency period can be equally dark.         Seems green was so variable.

British association with romers/roemers, as you'll know, was much earlier than the period that yours were made  -  but coming back to the dark green colour, it's interesting to read G. Bernard Hughes, who says.........."The catalogue of the Ed. & Leith Glass Co. of about 1816 illustrates roemers.     One example on a tall pedestal foot is drawn in section to emphasize the wide, hollow stem:    another is in dark green-glass with a low conical foot covered with a close spiral of glass thread."

Douglas Ash says of roemers - when speak of much later C19 examples    "..........and the Continental type has been reproduced in Germany and Czechoslovakia in the 19th century and later".

Not my area remotely, but bearing in mind the style, plus cut and polished rims (of these two pieces), if I had to jump one way it would be to your side of the water.

Of course if someone knows of a U.K. factory that did knock these things out in the middle of the C19, then do shout

[Ivo]

I find this sort of glass impossible to date. Do you know of any book or source which can aid in dating these types of glass?

My personal all time favourite source for dating drinking glasses has to be "Dansk Glas 1825-1925" by Larsen Riismoller & Schlüter. Obviously they only deal with Danish glass but the Danish glass industry produced all standard drinking glasses of the 19th century - including dark green Rummers with a trumpet foot and tiny little prunts in 1853.

Other than that I think it is more a case of type of glass.  Drinking glass industry in Finland, in France, in Holland, in Britain and in Germany made similar models. The market demanded, the industry provided. Just the intensity of colour was a very British thing.

Typical white wine glasses like dark green rummers were not only made in white wine producing countries but also elsewhere.

The deep green at issue was achieved by Zaffre, a colorant very popular in Britain where it was imported via Bristol - hence the Bristol green name. And I have never come across precisely that dark hue in German glass. I might try and shoot 2 of them side by side tomorrow - if the sun shines...

[Paul S.]

the period covered by the Dansk Glas book is a century where, in the U.K., we are poorly served for reference books on drinking glasses.              There are many books covering C18 and early C19 glass, but after c. 1830 serious collectors take little interest, which is partly due to the advent of pressed glass, and doubtless affected also by the lack of quality hand made material.     Victoria's reign seems to have ushered in the beginnings of utility glass, and you can see why the collectors passion drops away.

quote..............."Drinking glass industry in Finland, in France, in Holland, in Britain and in Germany made similar models. The market demanded, the industry provided. Just the intensity of colour was a very British thing"..........       
Whilst there may have been a similarity in many drinking glass shapes throughout Europe during the C19, I wasn't aware that the British made romers/roemers - at least in the traditional C17 German style - the Ravenscroft examples didn't have the German coiled pedestal stem form.      I do know that there are one or two alleged dark green examples reputedly British with flatish feet similar to the Ravenscroft pieces  -  but I get the impression that the German coiled stemmed romer/roemer, was not a shape that the British persisted with  -  certainly in the C19.          I have to say that despite my above comments about E. & L. roemers, I must admit to not having seen one.

coming back to the comments about zaffre  -  it would seem that chromium was used as a colourant to produce a good dark green - although I don't think it was used prior to c. 1800, before which the books are telling me that iron oxide and copper were used.       So probably much or some of the C19 dark green glass did in fact contain chromium.

Did zaffre produce green as well as blue??  -  I had heard of this used to produce the colour Bristol blue.
(that's a smiley by the way  -  just in case there is any misunderstanding).

[neil53]

Just to add to the discussion.  Two observations about dating roemers from various continental books on glass (dates are approximate):

1.  Early (<18th century) feet were made by a single trail of glass that was coiled to build up the foot.  Early 19th century roemers had a plain foot onto which a trail of glass was run.  The inside of the foot should be smooth.  Late 19th century and on roemers (Peter, I said dates are approximate!) had moulded feet - the prominent "trailing" on the outside of the foot is complemented by a indentation of the same size on the inside of the foot.

2.  Foot:body:bowl ratios changed over time. Early roemers (<18th century) typically had short feet, mid-sized bodies and large bowls.  As the 18th and 19th centuries progressed the foot and body increased in size in relation to the bowl until they were approximately even in size.  As the 19th century ended and through into the 20th century the foot became elongated in relation to the bowl and the body decreased in size.  A good example of this are the modern Theresienthal glasses.  I've added some photos of 18C, 19C and 20C roemers as illustrations.  Now, these are indicators but NOT absolute.   I've seen older roemers with a balanced foot:body:bowl ratio and 18C roemers with high feet in relation to the bodies and bowls.  I've also had modern roemers with small feet.

I would say that these glasses are probably 20th century, but as always it is difficult to know without studying the metal and the wear.

Hope this helps somewhat.  I believe I picked up most of this information from "The book of Glass" by Gustav Weiss.

Neil

[Paul S.]

hello Neil  -  presumably your book doesn't have an English text - is it worth getting, and is it expensive?
Suppose I should get the Dansk book some time

Not that it makes any difference to this discussion, but I've just rememberd that John (I think) mentioned recently the little foray that W/Fs. made into roemers around the turn of the C19 - C20, although I don't believe they looked like Ivo's examples.

However, since we started this thread, I've just noticed a picture and caption in the McConnell edited version of the Miller's '20th Century Glass' - page 13 - which uses examples to describe the 'evolution of the roemer wine glass.
The item shown is dark green and more like Ivo's than the pieces shown in Neil's post.      The caption reads...
"British, dark green version, c. 1900"   ...........unfortunately there's no provenance or attribution given, although it would be very interesting to know which British factory was considered to have reproduced such an historic style.

As we know, there have been periods, at least in British manufacturing, when antique styles were re-issued.      The big houses in the last quarter of the C19 copied much Georgian cut glass, and then again in the 1930's there was a passion for repeating the exercise, although more directed at the smooth surfaced glass.         Perhaps this gives Ivo's roemers more of a chance of being British, but just possibly not the date suggested originally.            

[neil53]

Hi Paul, no the book has an English test otherwise I would have been none the wiser as to its content.   I should have written "continental" author.  It's a nice book for tracking European glass.  I also seem to remember something in Hartshorne about roemer evolution.  I'll try to look that up this evening.