Topic: Cut Glass Dish - Georgian?

[Paul S.]

like the wall and lawn Ken        you must send some of that sunshine to the U.K.  -  been the coolest/dullest May in the U.K. for some years.                                Your pickle is a great piece too and attractive engraving.           The op's. example is cut rather than engraved.

appreciate your confirmation of use re the op's dish - still, I'm guessing a less than common shape even for States pickle/relish/olive dish - those that I can find in the books are canoes, oval or rectangular.

Without labouring the point too much, but just to comment on cutting styles and related periods, and reasons why, in my opinion, brian's dish almost certainly isn't as old as he was thinking  ...............   
U.K. Georgian table glass 1790- 1830, which is the most commonly referred to period, is characterized by relief diamonds, blazes, strawberry diamonds, saw tooth rims, cross cut diamonds and deep mitres, often covering the majority of the surface of the glass.
Mostly because of the lack of these known typical cuts, plus the shape and rather meagre amount of decoration, my opinion suggests this one is much later than the period I've mentioned.

I get the impression from reading some of Jane Spillman's comments that there wasn't a comparable trade in home produced cut glass, in the States, prior to ABP.             Your market borrowed English and Irish styles, but home produced cut glass seems to have been insignificant during the early C19  -  the answer probably being found in the statistics in Westropp's 'Irish Glass'.          He gives details of the truly staggering quantities that were sent from Ireland to the eastern Seaboard, produced possibly with cheap labour, and perhaps your home market found it more economic to import rather than to produce.

So my thoughts are that as this piece lacks similarity to European Georgian glass - appears to have no obvious connection with States American Brilliant Period  -  it is therefore most likely to be post c. 1915 - but probably State side in view of the shape.          Nonetheless one hundred years old, and being utility could easily show the wear as mentioned by brian.

[Ohio]

Yes Paul the U.S. production of cut glass before 1870 was close to virtually non-existant & the only reason we even have the historical ABP dates of 1876-1917 is not us so to speak...its the millions of European immigrants from 1850 through the Civil War into the reconstruction period. It was not an economic issue it was a skilled labor issue. The skilled glass labor force that was needed arrived by ship (I believe led by the Irish & eastern europeans) & supplanted what existed & until that 1876 date we did not have much cut production. It was amazing how large it grew in such a relatively short period of time & 41 years from start to finish is historically pretty puny.

[briana5125]

That's great you guy's , this glass is from Ireland well that's where I live and acquired it anyway.

So we seem to be settling on a Georgian style = (Edwardian) circa 1910???

Thanks so much , I have acquired a lot of antique stem ware and other glass recently and you have been a great help on this one.

[Paul S.]

well no, I don't think we can say Georgian style, for the reasons mentioned above.        The shape is not from that period, and the cutting has virtually nothing in common either - in fact the cutting is really not of any particular style, but going on the shape and Ken's comments, we might say early C20, and possibly from the States, originally, again in view of Ken's comments re pickle/relish dish.

Sorry these words seem picky, but with non-pressed glass - a lack of backstamp, and minimal cutting, we have problems of nailing something down to a specific period and origin, and it's tempting to imagine it's something we want it to be.
Some early C20 cut glass does have a backstamp - some we can run down in catalogues - but attribution for much of it remains unknown - outside of well known shapes with specific cutting.

Yours might be Irish in origin but you learn that glass travels - sometimes a long way - so not guaranteed just because that is where you found it.

Unfortunately, outside the Georgian period, there's a lack of good books on post c. 1840 cut glass - and when you think how much has been produced, from umpteen countries  -  it's a difficult area to be certain in.
But learning and finding out is the fun part.

[cagney]

With all do respect I would like to dispel the notion that cut glass production in america was some what negligible pre-1870. Certainly by the 1820's there where at least 10 different glass co. making rich cut glass. Many located in pittsburgh, PA. The first and most prolific being Benjamin Bakewells [ b. 1767 Derby, England ] " PITTSBURGH FLINT GLASS MANUFACTORY " established in 1808.
The War of 1812 [ the second war with England ] and the resulting  Embargo Acts, etc. precipitated a large expansion of the domestic glass industry.
The first photo is the earliest documented example of Bakewells cut glass. Presented to President James Madison in 1816.

[Ohio]

Yes looking back I definately should have more clearly stressed a comparison with pre-1870 cut operations to the historical ABP dates of 1876-1917 when stating cut glass before 1870 was close to virtually non-existant. Of course there were early cut operations prior to 1870, however when during the ABP period Spillman's records 77 cut operations working in just the Corning NY area alone & this is just one geographic area in the U.S. where cut operations flourished, well there is no dating comparison necessary when dealing with cut production & existing manufacturers pre-1870 & post 1870.  Still I should have more properly recognized those that existed, like the Bakewell cut operation that underwent nine name changes covering a period of 74 years until it closed in 1882.   

[cagney]

I would not confuse " cut operations " with glass companies making actual glass.

[Paul S.]

some possible explanation which may clarify our conversations here, regarding the use of words such as 'insignificant' and 'negligible' - is that we may have used these expressions as a result of making comparisons - trying in the process to illustrate the volume of related goods, produced by different countries.
Making comparisons, in most matters, is a simple and effective way of illustrating differences between them, and these can usually be understood by most people  -  even me.
My first hand knowledge of eastern States cut glass production is meagre to say the least, and as usual I relied heavily on Spillman's comments  - and in view of the lady's expertise - would ordinarily have believed them to be reliable when speaking of overall cut glass production in the States in the first half of the C19.
There is no doubt that when making comparisons of the volume of manufactured glass, plus the massive export figures detailed by Westropp, for the period in question, that there is a 'significant' difference between States home grown quantity and that produced in northern Europe during this period.

I wouldn't pretend to be in the same league as cagney or Ken in terms of knowledge of C19 States cut glass  -  but am prepared to believe that volume differences between the two countries, during our period, were 'significant'.  

[Ohio]

I would not confuse " cut operations " with glass companies making actual glass.

Farrar & Spillman do not use any clarifying statetments whatsoever regarding the number of existing cut operations in the Corning area being designated as those who soley (a) originally did the pours & (b) then cut the the original blank they poured. Numerous operations cut blanks originally poured by other companies & furthermore no "cut" reference nor "cut" author I am aware of has ever even hinted that one must qualify as "a glass company making actual glass" to be regarded as a cut operation. Surely you are  aware that many cut operations cut blanks they did not pour. There is no confusion here just as there has absolutely never been any existing standard that to be a "cut" operation one must produce the glass blank they cut.