Topic: Help with ID for silver rimmed open salt, possibly Webb or Stevens and Williams?

[Lustrousstone]

I think your salt is by Thomas Webb as far as the glass is concerned looking at those links, but your auction link does give different metal bashers. The metal bashers bought the glass or were commissioned by the retailers. Glass makers such as Thomas Webb were generally only involved in the glass part, so I'm not quite sure where you are going currently. On here, we would consider it Webb glass; on silver message boards they will be more concerned with the maker of the fittings. Some Webb glass is marked on the glass itself. All silver is marked but it is unlikely that any silver fitting has a Thomas Webb mark, just the glass part

[chriss]

Hi Lustrousstone and thanks for the reply You said you weren't sure where I was going, when agincourt17 (thank you ) mentioned the silver may bear no strong link but the date may give a clue, thats why I focussed on the marks and then when I thought I possibly found the sponsor mark/maker I then looked at their geography as that may be relivant (as you had said Webb was a possibility and they were stourbridge area) and what they supplied and the Carter link showed they are known to have mounted silver onto what they described as Webb and other items of Webb there looked like mine which backed your original thoughts, but I remembered my foreign glass with the silver hallmarks and mentioned about about that too as you had mentioned about loads of foreign glass being mounted with silver in the UK as I didn't know how reliable Carters is from your advice about being wary about auctioneers attributions, they are not auctioneers but I don't know how reliable or accurate they are with atributions The Thomas Webb mark I had seen too but assumed it was their personal silversmith mark, I didn't know they didn't have one Thank you for your help with this and the info and advice that you have given, much appreciated

[Lustrousstone]

So, in conclusion, I think it is highly likely you have a Thomas Webb salt from 1885 with a rim possibly made by David and Lionel Spiers of Birmingham.


There aren't that many UK assay offices, so silver is/was marked at the nearest one. Where the silver was made does not necessarily correlate with where the glass was made, though it might. Glass travels and always has done, which doesn't make IDing its origin easy. What I'm saying is that you sometimes have to look beyond the obvious clues such as silver marks and painted place names and focus on the glass itself first.

For example, these water jugs are souvenirs; one of Winnipeg, Canada, and one of Salt Lake City, USA, but both were most definitely made in the USA by Heisey.

[chriss]

Thank you

[Lustrousstone]

I've just my reply makes little sense without the picture http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1470

[flying free]

Is it possible this might be Harrach?
The Webb pieces I have (decorated by Jules Barbe I believe) have incredibly accurate gilding with no gilded outlines around the raised segments.  The Harrach pieces that have very similar gilding have outlined gilt lines around the raised segments as this one does.
It's not unusual for Bohemian pieces to  be imported and to have English silver collars attached.
This should link to a photo of my vase showing the difference in the gilding,
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=55750.0;attach=148604;image

Of course it's possible the salt is Webb but was gilded by someone else I guess but on the links the gilding also looks very accurate.
m

[Lustrousstone]

This is Webb and the gilding overflows the raised areas is places. I doubt Jules Barbe was the only Webb decorator
http://lustrousstone.co.uk/cpg/displayimage.php?pid=1701

[flying free]

No you are right. I don't disagree  that there could have been other gilders working on the glass

Is this vase a Thomas Webb Peachblow?  It has similar design to yours and the butterfly.
I've been trying to look at the enamelling and gilding on yours but can't see it close up.
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/item/5715059_lg-antique-thomas-webb-jules-barbe-hp-peachblow

Looking at that one close up I still think it is much neater enamelling/gilding but I can also see that the design is very similar  to the little blue salt.

I looked up some interesting information about Jules Barbe because I'd remembered it from investigating my own vase.

Charles Hajdamach's British Glass 1800-1914 page 325. 
There is an article reproduced that originally was written in 1905.
In that article it says Jules Barbe came to this country in 1879 and worked exclusively for Dennis Glass Works until 1902.
The article comments on gilding and enamelling and says ' it is but little known that M. Jules Barbe of King William Street, is generally regarded as the most prominent individual exponent of this art in this country'. It then discusses how the enamelling and gilding was gradually dropped by manufacturers.
It goes on to say  that by the time the article was written in 1905 M. J. Barbe was the only representative of gilding and painting in the district, and of this particular line in this country.  ( I think the 'line' it was referring to was  the jug in colour plate 41 on page 321 in the book). So by 1905 he was indeed the only one in the district and for that type of enameling and gilding, the only one in the whole country.

I think I have read somewhere that that type of 'padded' gilding is very difficult to do and that Jules Barbe used his own recipe for it (I don't think I've made that information up, but am dredging my memory here).

Just rambling but I suppose what I'm saying it that I'm still a bit cautious about the way the gilding is executed on the salt by comparison. The pieces that I've found that seem to have the best id's as Thomas Webb that have gilding, all seem to have very well executed gilding.  The salt doesn't quite match up.  I know what you are saying about your gilding going over the edge but the salt appears to have the padded bits actually outlined in gilt.  I've seen that technique on Harrach pieces and Alisa has a good Harrach example here -
http://www.thegildedcurio.com/item-Harrach-70.html


But I'm probably wrong    I've not looked at glass for a very long time.  And looking at other vases that Alisa has under Harrach they are not all the same as that with the outline.  So perhaps it's just a different technique?
m

[Lustrousstone]

I  can't see any outlining on the salt myself. I'm confident this salt is English, as the padding is brown. Bohemian padding is yellow or orange in my experience

[flying free]

Ok, after discussion and further searching, I'm not really disagreeing it's possibly English but more that I can't see how it can definitely be identified as Thomas Webb

There are definite gilding lines around all the padded work if you enlarge this photo in my link below.  However, that could have happened because the gilding of the padding has gone all on to the glass area surrounding the padding, making it look like an outline.  But there is a lot of it so to me it looked like an outline on all the design.

http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=60408.0;attach=177115;image

That is very different to how my vases from Jules Barbe look.  And the other work I have seen by him.  They are incredibly precise and the gilding does not go over the edge of the padding.  I accept that there may have been other gilders in the factory if indeed it was made by Thomas Webb, however I would still query that technique of execution.
 
Just another aside re the number of gilders. Firstly,a correction to my post on dates, where CH says that Jules Barbe finished at TW in 1901 not 1902 (the date I calculated from the article).  Secondly, it does also say in the book ,page 326
'... Apart from the information that a relative, Paul Tallandier, went to work as an enameller for Coalport, the histories of the other craftsmen are not known.  Barbe and his son settled at No. 7 Collis Street, and went to work at Thomas Webb and Sons.'
I interpret that info that both Barbe and his son went to work at Thomas Webb.  (M. J. Barbe is cited as being there 1879-1901).

That period appears to cover the time this piece was made, gilded and a silver collar attached.  Barbe was a master artist who trained in Paris as a decorative artist '...at a time when the 'Union Centrale des Arts Decoratifs' was established to support those arts.' 
I suppose the question is how many were working at Thomas Webb as gilders?  If there were 'many' then yes I suppose I buy that the quality of the work might vary.  If there were only Jules Barbe and his son and the odd other person, then I 'm musing there would have been high quality control on enamel and gilt work emanating from the factory.

With regard to how many workers in this field would be at a particular factory, there is an interesting comment in the Crystal Years (R.S. Williams-Thomas), the book written about Stevens and Williams.  On page 49 he says:
'The works had been completely rebuilt in 1870, a bare quarter of a mile from the 1776 original Moor Lane factory.  This gave a chance to build in a hollow square with the glasshouse  in the open centre.  The gilding shop was in one corner of the square and was a little, dark, one-storey shed, with it's muffle sited in an off-shoot passage leading to the blacksmith's shop next door.  There was scant room for three artists, all of whom needed to face the pale light from the reeded window

He goes on to talk about another three  artists specifically named who worked at S&W. i.e. I just do not get the impression that there were hundreds or even 'many' people carrying out this work at a glassworks.

So I'm circumspect about the Thomas Webb identification a bit. Also I can't seem to find any bright blue satin glass cased over white pieces that have been definitely identified as Thomas Webb.  Nor can I find that particular design on something definitely id'd as Thomas Webb.  Can't find a primary source.
I can see the design on your vase (pine needles) on the peachblow vase on page 316 of CH British Glass 180-1914 . 
m