Topic: new arrival to the Monart collection

[Gary]

The reason I was asking about the Paul Ysart attribution was about the base and pontil on the vase. In the photo it does not look like a post war finish.
I was going to ask for a clearer photo of base and pontil.


“the profusion of swirls are very apparent on post war labelled pieces “
Whilst agreeing with your above statement, you should not discount this type of decoration (profusion of swirls) being used by Salvador in the pre war Monart production and post war Vasart production.
For instance Monart colour code 42, 128, 234, 300, 390 and 411 are only a few instances of pre war Monart with a profusion of swirls. Also all pre war Paisley shawl decorated pieces have a profusion of swirls.
The first image is of Monart colour code 390, the second is colour code 300, the third is colour code 248 and the last one is a signed Vasart bowl (similar to Monart shape UB).
Gary

[millarart]

The reason I was asking about the Paul Ysart attribution was about the base and pontil on the vase. In the photo it does not look like a post war finish.
I was going to ask for a clearer photo of base and pontil.


“the profusion of swirls are very apparent on post war labelled pieces “
Whilst agreeing with your above statement, you should not discount this type of decoration (profusion of swirls) being used by Salvador in the pre war Monart production and post war Vasart production.
For instance Monart colour code 42, 128, 234, 300, 390 and 411 are only a few instances of pre war Monart with a profusion of swirls. Also all pre war Paisley shawl decorated pieces have a profusion of swirls.
The first image is of Monart colour code 390, the second is colour code 300, the third is colour code 248 and the last one is a signed Vasart bowl (similar to Monart shape UB).
Gary

the base has outer ground ring , also paul was working in monart pre and post war so who is to say he wasn't accountable for a lot of the swirl decoration pre war aswell, but when looking through libertys catalogues  there is not many with swirls , I am going by what I have been told by chic whom was trained under paul that paul loved doing heavily swirled designs and since chic joined paul in 1946 when paul restarted monart the pieces chic seen paul do had to be post war ,  I am not saying Salvador did not produce swirl pieces im sure he did and that's probably where paul learnt to do so from, as for base proving pre post war I have examples of both pre and post which have the same base finish and both labelled so these finishes were used both pre and post , however its been my understanding that the really early first pieces did not have the grinding to the base outer , so as for myself if a piece is not labelled and it is not the shawl decoration or white inner  (because we know this stopped when the gas was changed shawl not white inner)  etc then I find it hard to prove whether a piece is pre or post war as some colourways and base finishes  were used both pre and post

[Gary]

Quote from Gary's last post
paul was working in monart pre and post war so who is to say he wasn't accountable for a lot of the swirl decoration pre war aswell, but when looking through libertys catalogues  there is not many with swirls , I am going by what I have been told by chic whom was trained under paul that paul loved doing heavily swirled designs and since chic joined paul in 1946 when paul restarted monart the pieces chic seen paul do had to be post war ,  I am not saying Salvador did not produce swirl pieces im sure he did and that's probably where paul learnt to do so from,

Paul said it himself in an interview with Ian Turner when describing the various task each member of the Ysart family did in producing pre war  Monart.
This is all written down in the YSART GLASS, on page 17.
I will only quote the relevant facts  “ Next, Augustine took over. He was responsible for working the enamels that Vincent had just marvered in.
The most common form of decoration found on commercial Monart production is the whorl, a swirl of enamel colour. Some pieces are covered all over
in these swirls: others have swirls at the junction of different bands of colour.
Augustine work was finished when he picked up the second gather which sealed the decoration.
Paul’s task was the shaping of the final piece”.
You are correct the Liberty catalogue does not have many pieces with swirls, it also has no mushroom lamps, which only proves they did not have a wide selection of Monart glassware and not that pre war Monart use of swirls minimal .
Monart restarted in 1947 the same year Chic Young started at Moncrieff Glassworks and not 1946.

All the Ysart images in my last post have pre war labels (apart for the L/H on in first photo ) or signed.
Gary

[millarart]

well there ya go then theres no point in saying anymore really  after this as I keep saying I am talking post war when it was paul and chic and  none of the rest who by then had left to start Vasart ,and im sure chic was very truthful in what he told me about his time with Paul at Monart aswell as at Wick after all he really was there working for him not just sitting many many  years later interviewing him ,   oh I made a mistake with the date im am soooooooooooo sorry I got mixed up with the start of Vasart and not the restart of monart  , I have only been collecting ysart glass for 15/16 years plus and have only owned a mere 400 to 500 plus pieces in that time (maybe more) not including the 100s of vasart / strathearn and Perthshire ive owned ,  so im just a novice to this glass stuff, and all my info on  ysart glass has only came from face to face meetings with employees . family and friends in their homes and at the ysart glass conference , phone calls and face to face with nigel benson , frank Andrews etc not just from reading up on it , oh and im sure that when Paul restarted Monart in 1947 yes 47 I got it right this time he knew how to do a lot more than just  shape a vase and since he learnt chic everything it proves he must have , so il stick to my original thoughts when I first posted this that my thoughts were paul ysart not once did I say I knew for sure but as always you seem to take pleasure in proving folk wrong when it comes to monart/ysart glass posts on here and to be honest im more interested in the actual glass so if I like a piece that's what counts more than others  information that they have read up on only ,

[nigel benson]

This is a shame, because both of the Gary's make good points.

To my mind it is often the case with glass that things are more fluid (pardon the pun!) than we would like to think, making dating far more difficult than any of us would wish.

Millarart makes an assertion based on interviews with Chic Young which is fair comment and indeed adds to our knowledge on the subject, which to my mind gives it some importance. Conversely, Gary points out what has been the received wisdom prior to the Ysart Conference, and I guess one should add Millarart's reported interviews. Neither are wrong with their information, however it seems that there is a locking of horns about how to interpret that information that frankly boils down to 'Ya pays ya money and ya takes ya choice'.

Having said this I do have to add a little more information that is, I believe, already in the public domain. Ian Turner owned (from memory) maybe three pieces of Monart that were signed with an inscribed mark 'Paul Ysart'. They were made for an exhibition by Paul. Certainly one (and here again memory fails since it could have been more) was a well swirled piece, suggesting that Millarart's interviews with Chic Young are borne out. That is not to say Gary's assertions about the use of swirls before the war are wrong. It just helps amplify the information we are discussing.

At the Ysart Conference we were told that these swirls were known as 'Ysart Swirls' because they are synonymous with the Ysart family and their direct successors. It is difficult, if not impossible, to think of anyone using these swirls that cannot be linked back to the Ysarts - certainly up to around 2010, if not to date.

Nigel