Topic: Vase signed G.S.F. - American?

[flying free]

Paul, that's fantastic!  Thank you sooo very much.

Have to say that gilded insect is beautifully done - (silently wondering if it is Jules Barbe for Thomas Webb  ). 
 
So I am time limited at the moment but are we seeing :
a) the clear versions which are the 'hammered' design?
b) the pink versions which are the 'fishscale'registered design?

Maybe not as it has occurred to me that I found a pink version with a black enamelled rd number on the base that was the 3 number not the 4 number.  So perhaps they can't be separated by hammered (clear glass, 3..... rd number) and fishscale (Pink or cream glass, 4..... rd number).  On the other hand, perhaps the black enamelled number was added 'afterwards' to that pink fishscale vase(eek  .. link no longer available but I'd guess that hand painted rd numbers on bases could be suspect sometimes).

On the making of them:
Kev, I've been thinking that it might have been cream cased red (pink), blown into a mold, hence the pink being quite pale on the widest parts of the body and darker in the less blown out bits at the foot/neck perhaps?

Also ... perhaps those metal collars might have been why the rims are cut on some.  Lovely with the metal collars I have to say.
That one with the fishtail foot - I'm sure I found one in real life that has that effect as well.

There are so many, and so many here in the UK, that I have to think perhaps Bohemian (prolific senders of glass to UK, and also known Bohemian maker (Loetz) made for Wittmann and Roth, and also more likely with cut and polished rims than a Uk maker perhaps?).  Also metal bashers (as Bernard called them) often made collars for Bohemian glass here I think. (that collar is lovely in the sepia pic)

That jug also reminds me of a Harrach type shape.

Also, Wittmann - that's a German name isn't it rather than English?  Perhaps there was an  easy connection to Bohemian glassmakers because of family connections maybe?

With regard to them being made by Thomas Webb - I think the Webb archives are in Dudley aren't they?  So it is entirely possible that Fieldings have found the Webb pattern to be honest.  Webb will have made them for Wittmann and Roth perhaps as a 'sole' product for them and Wittmann and Roth will have as we have seen, made sure their number or mark was put on them.  Bernard used to say that retailers did not like their makers marking their pieces.  Wittmann and Roth seem to have been middle men rather than retailers and perhaps went one further ensuring that all products made for them were marked as theirs (I think they marked ceramics as well and I don't believe they were made by them either).

Ooh, I hope we manage to solve this one.

m

[Paul S.]

I think we need some factual input now  -  we've probably speculated adequately.

I've just tried Will Farmer at Fieldings, but absent until Monday, so will speak to him then.            Hopefully he'll be able to shed some light on the origin of their provenance and their comments on the ovoid crushed cranberry scale patterned cameo jardinaire carrying the Rd. No. 41925, as  "made by Webbs."        Perhaps he might also have some thoughts on the 'hammered' design Rd. 39086.

Fish, in some form of carp looking species, were common on Bohemian glass as decoration in the C19, so who knows, and the list of applicants for British Registrations during the same period is littered with names more native to eastern and central Europe than England.

[flying free]

prefer to think of it as 'brainstorming', rather than  'speculating'  
m

[Paul S.]

just had a phone conversation with Will Farmer at Fieldings, who keen to help us with definitive provenance as to whether these 'scale' moulded pieces carrying Wittmann & Roth Rd. 41925 are from T/Webb factory, or non-U.K. manufacturer.                Will has asked that I send him an email confirmation of our discussions today, where I've requested details of provenance of Fielding's statement that T/Webb were definitely makers for retailers Wittmann & Roth  -  so will do later today.

Presently Will Farmer is in process of cataloguing large collection from academic source, which think includes one of these scale mouded pieces - so asked that we have a little patience and has promised will help in due course.

I will also mention the 'hammered' pieces - Rd. 39086 - and see if Fieldings are able to assist with that one as well.

[flying free]

have you seen the clear hammered version of cameo lampshade just posted on another thread?
will link in a second

Link here - just in case it is a similar 'hammered' background and might become important at some point.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,63355.msg355529.html#msg355529

ooh, hopefully the large catalogue from an academic source might be .... Thomas Webb from the pattern books ... maybe?
I see 'academic' and think university and one of the universities has a very large glass collection - maybe Sheffield? can't remember, but it might be that.  sorry ... yet more speculation  - I cannot help myself 

m

[Paul S.]

seem to remember Will Farmer commenting somewhere in our conversation something to the effect that this large collection was a project that he'd been working on for three or four years, but beyond that I've no idea as to any names - it may well have simply been a large private collection - and I wasn't in a prying mood
Fingers crossed we will eventually get a positive result.

yes, thanks for the link, but in all honesty cameo not my area, so shouldn't open my mouth and put foot in it  -  but marvellous piece, and wish I'd found it.           Presumably not T/Webb  -  didn't they always sign their 'fleur cameo' pieces  -  in relief?

[flying free]

It also says in the book the Thomas Webb versions came in lilies or tulips.  So on the basis this isn't a lily or a tulip and it's not signed, I would think then not Thomas Webb 'Cameo Fleur' ?

Which would leave Richardson's Rich Cameo as a possibility based on the background effect.
And perhaps Bohemian glassmakers as well?

m

[KevinH]

Paul S said in another thread (Reply #8, Glass Reference Question):

Apropos of nothing mentioned here, I think I'm correct in saying that none of Manley's illustrations show examples of either of the Wittmann & Roth Registrations - 41925 (for the scale decoration) and 39086 (the hammered effect) - about which we've spilled not a little ink recently.
Is it likely that he simply didn't find examples - though he had some real gems that today you aren't going to find - or is there another reason he didn't include them?

I agree that in Decorative Victorian Glass Manley does not show examples of "fish scale" or "hammered" items. But ...

... in the earlier American book: Collectible Glass Book 4, British Glass, published by Wallace-Homestead Book Co., copyright 1968 Theodore C. and Viola V. Lagerberg, there are three examples (of fish scale pattern - in pink) listed as nos 332, 333 & 340. Manley's description was essentially: Unknown English; ones similar to item 340 but in pearl iridescent being continental. He also stated that "Thos. Webb & Sons have no record of the surface pattern". And he added that he thought the pattern was referred to in America as Webb "fish scale". [My emphasis.]

Item 332 is a Jug with a handle with "squared off top"; Item 333 is a shallow bowl and Item 340 is (seemingly - no sizes given in the book) a large vase with what looks like six bulbous body sections. All three items have a shallow foot noticeably less wide than the body.

As for why these were not in the later book, perhaps Manley discovered all three examples were really "continental"? Just a thought!

[Paul S.]

Mod: Some parts here have been edited following a move of discussion between threads.

thanks for the additional information  -  regret - I've never owned the books of which you speak so can't comment, but........   and sorry if I seem thick, but are you saying that the Largerbergs used Cyril Manley's expertise and knowledge to assist with attributions etc. for the text of  their book??
I would agree that the absence of any 'scale' patterned pieces in Manley's U.K. book - being discussed here in another thread - does look to indicate there may have been issues about which he had some concerns.

We don't want to side-track this particular conversation too much since the Wittmann & Roth issue - as Kevin suggests - resides properly in another thread.                I sense there may be difficulties here with making a proven connection between the 'scale' Reg. 41925, and the popularly assumed T/Webb attribution, as manufacturers, under agreement, from Wittmann & Roth   -  but I may yet be forced to eat my words  -  there's a lot of very knowledgeable folk out there, and regret I'm not one of them.

quote................"He also stated that "Thos. Webb & Sons have no record of the surface pattern". And he added that he thought the pattern was referred to in America as Webb "fish scale". [My emphasis.]""  ............  is certainly a rather damning comment as to any provenance that Wittmann & Roth farmed out their Rd. design 41925 for Webb to make.........   which is what some folk are claiming.

[KevinH]

...are you saying that the Largerbergs used Cyril Manley's expertise and knowledge to assist with attributions etc. for the text of  their book?? ...

I should have confirmed something that I missed when I first mentioned the book in the GMB: It is stated that all descriptions were by C. C. Manley.