Topic: Glass tumbler 1646

[nigelbenson]

Hmm, I wasn't really asking about the movements, rather the glass that was produced and the occasional difficulty in attributing British glass to a particular Movement/era.

Sometimes an item can be classed as either Aesthetic or A&C; similarly A&C or Art Nouveau. Often they are quite distinct, however there are things that could be either.

Green spiral trailing over clear glass A&C, or Art Nouveau? The same vase green on green is A&C.

The Powell glass by Philip Webb that I linked to A&C, or Aesthetic? Or both?

I don't see it being in a museum in America a problem, rather preaching English glass abroad

Cheers, Nigel

[Paul S.]

Nigel, I'll ask the Mods. to remove that post if you like 

Confining comments to your original questions regarding differences between the aesthetic and A. & C. then.......... 
In view of the apparent criteria for the aesthetic style, then I have a problem finding pieces that conform genuinely and qualify i.e. the Japanese influence, -  although you may be correct and that many folk to see A. & C. within what others see as 'aesthetic' pieces - nothing in art is simple  -  I notice that Andy McConnell doesn't appear to index the word 'aesthetic' in his Decanter book.

In my opinion, the fly in the ointment with 'aesthetic' is art nouveau  ..   the qualifications for which as you'll know are the sinuous, curving lines and representation of natural forms, much of which can be seen in what people call 'aesthetic'.        Nouveau was a very long lived style, that incorporated many variations on the main theme, and showed differences in many countries.      I would go as far as saying that you will find all of the other movements we have mentioned within art nouveau - all the trailing you mention, Dresser's silver mounts, and some A. & C. detail.
There shouldn't really be a problem with A. & C. -  or is there.........   is Dresser's work with his linear and angular lines 'Modernism' or A. & C., or even the precursor of later art deco, or even his own personal take on art nouveau?

I think that Morris lost the plot somewhere along the way.....   as we said he praised Venetian around 1860, with it's fine lines and daintiness, but seems later to have favoured the simplicity of the medieval chunkiness -  although whether he himself ever described it as A. & C. I've no idea.
Sorry to say that I suffer from Nationalism........   am a big fan of keeping British culture in Britain, but I would send the 'marbles' back.

Promise I won't say any more - but please do give us your conclusion.

[nigelbenson]

I have been musing on this problem for sometime now, stimulated by two things.

Firstly, the common misnomers of attribution that I see on dealers stands, or by auctioneers, and or course, on eBay (and occasionally by collectors in discussion). Secondly, having visited the Aesthetic Exhibition held at the V&A Museum a few years back, I was astonished to see only one piece of British glass. It was a C. Dresser, Crow's Foot claret jug. (Mind that omission was true of the Art Deco exhibition too!).

This made me wonder, "Wasn't there anything else from Britain?" - especially since, at home, I had two highly Aesthetic pieces, an S&W decanter (missing stopper), and a silver plated stand holding a pair of deep bowls, all with high Japanese influence to the British taste. Was it not possible that a Museum in this country held similar items that could be worthy of show?

Then I went on to think about the pieces that I'd seen over the years with various attributions to style, or era.

I've been pondering since, and really was seeking the thoughts of other members. This might have stimulated a breakthrough with my little brain cells.

Yes, of course I have formulated some views, but occasionally I see something in a discussion, or a description, and it makes me question what I have concluded.

So, as you can see, it is a work in progress. A&C isn't a problem, generally, nor, Art Nouveau, or even true Aesthetic, it's when there appears to be a cross over that I can feel some confusion!!

Enough for now. Cheers, Nigel

[ju1i3]

Paul, I think the vase design is based on this portrait of Charles I https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_I_at_the_Hunt

[Paul S.]

thanks Julie  -  yes, agree it does appear to be a very similar pose and could well have been taken from that famous painting, which most people would have known, and V.D. always been a favourite artist.      Is the decoration on your bulb vase based on the same method as that used to decorate b. & w. plates i.e. transfer taken from inked copper plate, or was it hand painted? 

V.D. obviously keeping on the right side of the King............   for someone of short stature, Charles seems to be towering over the horse   

[ju1i3]

transfer ware (shame no one seems to come to the pottery board to discuss these things!)

[Paul S.]

oh, pity.............   well let's discuss it here then shall we............         sorry folks  -  as a final comment on Julie's bulb vase............ 

Just been through the Coysh & Henrywood two volume 'Dictionary of Blue & White Printed Pottery 1780 - 1880'  -  but no sign of this S. Hancock bulb vase or that particular transfer print, and in fact unable to find anything remotely similar so must assume Dutch/Cavalier/Charles I very uncommon as we did suggest.
On the other hand Julie's vase may well have been a design produced after 1880 (as suggested), and hence not figured in the book (the title indicating nothing after 1880) - Sampson Hancock did in fact continue well into the C20.

[ju1i3]

If I'm understanding the base mark correctly, the blue and white Charles I vase dates 1881-1920? going by it being marked Stoke on Trent rather than Tunstall (before) or Hanley (after)? http://www.thepotteries.org/allpotters/501.htm

the design seems to have been used on at least a few different vase shapes
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-us/auction-catalogues/gerrards-auction-rooms/catalogue-id-srger10068/lot-e5a77402-d568-4e6a-947f-a50600ca0713
https://www.the-saleroom.com/en-gb/auction-catalogues/wotton-auction-rooms/catalogue-id-srwot10083/lot-df9f1f10-172c-42d8-9ebb-a62601098a04
https://www.blueandwhite.com/products.asp?p=SHANK50243
https://www.blueandwhite.com/museum.asp?m=Hancock+Sampson&p=Unidentified+Pattern