Topic: Rare 1840s Baccarat uranium glass becher -show and tell Launay Hautin 1841

[flying free]

But it would work for a nice Pimms 

Funny though, there don't seem to be that many other pieces in the catalogue that would work with it.
So I'm wondering if it was a fairly new design, and that perhaps later other shapes with that motif were added?

Neil, it's strange that yours come in the various sizes to be honest.  Would they have been heavy crystal or would they have been just made of glass?  ie. fairly lightweight.

I don't think mine is PV or MW but I am curious about the various sizes of that shape design and how it would function/handle as a useful item.

I have to say I am very excited to own this piece.  It's chipped but I have never ever seen another in coloured glass.  I have seen a few in clear glass in various motifs but not in coloured glass.  And the fact it's uranium is special particularly.


m

[Anne Tique]

There are five other pieces with the 'larmes' design in the 1841 catalogue.

[flying free]

ah, I could only spot three and none seemed to be a direct match with the hoops at the bottom or somewhere on the glass.  They just appeared to have the Larmes motif on them on the upper body but the lower body was different.  Nothing that seemed to make a  table 'set' if you like of water, wine and red wine for example.
However I have noticed in part 3 that it appears to show the items with designs that could be 'sets'.  So perhaps the Larmes was a motif that was a mix and match type thing.

Neil, the stem on the goblet you show here
https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/molineaux-webb-unregistered-pressed-glass/drinking
seems to perhaps put the goblet into the 1850s but the everted rim and the plain faceted design might just put it into the 1840s.
There is the start of that shape here
http://www.glas-musterbuch.de/Launay-Hautin-1841.21+B6YmFja1BJRD0yMSZwcm9kdWN0SUQ9OTEwJmRldGFpbD0_.0.html
  Unfortunately I can't find a later catalogue to search.
m

[neilh]

Thanks for your thoughts on the goblet. On the Hautin catalog, I was looking through my old conversations with a Canadian collector of over 20 years experience who had not seen the catalog before I pointed him at it. Rather like with UK pieces, he saw a number of designs virtually identical to some of his American collection.

My feeling is that in the 1830-1850 time period, there was an interleaving of pressed designs across USA / UK / Europe which we cannot fully untangle, after which everyone heads in their distinctive directions, perhaps because factories had access to moldmakers locally in later decades.

[flying free]

That is possibly the case.  But I think you also have to look for the differences and detail on each and on the glass metal used and possibly production method.


Remember the design I showed in the Clichy book of the goblet? well there is one very similar in the Launay Hautin cat with a different foot that is Baccarat as I showed, and there is another very similar in the shape as a whole including the foot, but with the mold lens design just slightly different in shape in there as Saint-Louis.


In the case of my becher there is a similarity of design but difference of shape between all three.  And it is very noticeable when you put the designs side by side that they are all different shapes.   
In this instance mine matches the Baccarat design and shape but doesn't match PV or MW and if I am honest I was very surprised at how perceptible and visible the differences are when I put the designs and the shape of mine all side by side on a word doc. 

Also some designs were produced over a long period. 
In the case of my becher, the design is right for the 1840s and it seems to have appeared in the 1841 catalogue.  But that's not to say they weren't producing them right through the 1840s and perhaps longer. 
But in the case of other designs they may have been much less subject to 'fashion' and produced for many tens of years.

I am keeping an open mind in this case, because of the colour.  Other French pieces I have found have been very yellow uranium glass for that period. Although in the 1845 link I gave it was specific that the colours from Baccarat in uranium glass were both yellow and green.
m

[Lustrousstone]

Playing devil's advocate here. You have to remember they are only drawings and very possibly not done from finished items but are drawings of drawings. It's also entirely possible that they were never sold by Launay Hautin if there were insufficient orders (old catalogues indicate what could be bought rather than what was available off the shelf). And who knows if they really were made by Baccarat. Your customers would never question that they weren't but the Napoleonic Wars were not long finished and there wasn't a lot of entente cordiale.  I doubt business men let such scruples get in the way of cheap English imports, though.
 
Unless you find your glass in a Baccarat catalogue, I doubt you will pin it down M

[Anne Tique]

Could this be an example of the M & W goblets? It seems that the rim at the top is a bit more 'present', if that makes sense, more than the Baccarat version anyway.

Item in the link's not attributed to anyone, just described as an art deco vase.

http://www.ebay.fr/itm/322417690237?rmvSB=true

[flying free]

There appears to be information here on the Pressglas Korrespondenz about having found original lithographs (?) or something for the Launay Hautin catalogues .

https://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2001-05-musterbuch-launay-hautin-1840.pdf
I'm not sure exactly what it says as translating such a huge body of text loses me.

It seems to me the Launay Hautin catalogues appear to have been drawn with architectural precision.
On page 10 of 39 on my link above it shows a green goblet and the matching design.  I think it says the design boards were in life size and actually the green goblet appears to be a direct match for the design.

What I have is a tumbler that appears to match the shape in the LH catalogue.
But it definitely does not match the shape in the PV or MW catalogue at all.
So are you saying the PV and MW catalogues could be drawings of drawings and therefore not accurate,  which might account for any difference in shape therefore indicating that on that basis mine still could be by PV or MW?

And did you mean 'Unless you find your glass in a Baccarat ( catalogue pattern book), I doubt you will pin it down '?

Because I think the LH catalogues were pretty specifically drawn from what can be seen on the PGK link.  LH were chosen as the agents for  initially a joint Baccarat/Saint-Louis sales outlet initiative  in Paris - and then subsequently Bercy and Choisy-Le-Roi joined the consortium as far as I have been able to make out.

I take on board your points, but since the beaker doesn't match the PV or MW shapes but does match the LH catalogue design, I'm less dubious than I might have been had it been a match in shape for all three if you see what I mean.

I can see that PGK has done some other comparisons to the LH pattern book drawings of items produced by other makers (see page 9 of 39 specifically the Sandwich goblet and the possibly Rejmyre/Kosta footed bowl), but to my eye they don't even look remotely similar so I can't see why there would have been any confusion in the first place - bit confusing really but I might be misunderstanding the reason why they showed the comparison.


Anne, that's a great find.  The shape is very different to mine and the glass quality appears to be extremely poor by comparison to mine as well.  Interesting.  I'll do some more digging.

m

[Lustrousstone]

I meant we have insufficient knowledge to know what source any of the catalogue drawings are based on, architectural precision to the drawing or or not. I can't see that that the PV or MW versions are that different to your glass.

I meant catalogue (manufacturers had catalogues for their wholesalers).

I'm saying you're wrong and that your glass is not Baccarat. I just don't we have enough evidence to say more that maybe as we don't know the veracity of the secondary source: the retailer.

[flying free]

This article copyright Simon Becker explains the Launay Hautin link to Baccarat and Saint-Louis
http://www.pressglas.de/English_Homepage/Texts/The_Beginnings/the_beginnings.html

This article explains the link between Baccarat and Saint-Louis
http://www.pressglas.de/English_Homepage/Explanations/Glassworks/glassworks.html


Well, I might be wrong as you say, but I am extremely happy with my chipped uranium glass becher    Been waiting a long time to find one and waiting for a green becher to add to my collection. 

It will give me hours of happy searching in the future There are definitely distinct differences between the shapes if you cut and paste them side by side compared to the LH shape and mine.  A bit like if you look at the shape of that amethyst one and mine ... completely different and that amethyst one is much more the MW shape design. 

One further question - I wonder what the mark in the indented base is from.  It's curious.  Other than that, no marks of mold lines or anything although there is the smallest faintest indent in the rim (not damage).

Percival Vickers glass recipe research here:
http://www.academia.edu/2445139/Glass_recipes_and_the_output_from_a_19th-century_glass_works_examples_from_Percival_Vickers_and_Co._Ltd._Jersey_Street_Manchester._Industrial_Archaeology_Review_34_1_51-64._2012_
Perhaps the only way to clarify definitively would be to chemically assess my glass - I'll add it to my growing list 


m