Topic: Rare 1840s Baccarat uranium glass becher -show and tell Launay Hautin 1841

[flying free]

Thank you  

[flying free]

Neil, is it possible that Molineaux Webb were selling pressed glass made in France from the Launay Hautin catalogue?

I ask because the similar shaped tumbler design to my two, appears in the MW catalogue is under 'unregistered pressed glass drinking vessels'.   There is at least one other tumbler that I noticed in there that also appears in the Launay Hautin catalogue. 
Not related but the detail in the LH catalogue appears to be more specific/defined that that in the MW catalogue for all items actually.  The MW depictions look quite basic by comparison

I've also come across another interesting item.  It's in the book Farbenglas .1 Waltraud Neuwirth on page 148.
It's a pressed glass vase in black in the Technical Museum Vienna. It (and it is identical to the catalogue) appears in the Launay Hautin 1840 catalogue as Saint Louis. (2me Partie Plance 26, No1400 (7) St.Louis.

The book says it is registered in the museum (Technical Museum Vienna) inv. no 7599 as Vase; probably French, prior to 1837; black pressed glass; label: "France 1837"; height 18cm (which is the 7inches denoted in the Launay Hautin catalogue). 

So an item appearing in the Launay Hautin catalogue of 1840 is registered in the museum as 1837 and being made prior to 1837.

There is also some very interesting information (contemporary to that period) on the molds and selling arrangement of those pressed items from the French makers which has made me question whether they were sending out bulk sales to other manufacturers in other countries.

[neilh]

No, I suspect Molineaux Webb's output was similar to other UK producers. There appears to be no attempt by British glass firms to match the lacy tableware suites seen in Hautin, or the busy designs of early American pressed glass. I think the UK was very conservative and early patterns were largely an extension of Regency patterns for salts, whereas plates showed restrained geometric designs.

I have pondered this - is there a missing bunch of fancy early English pressed glass? If it exists the best place to look for it would be in Neal's 1962 book on early salts. It shows mainly American designs, but some have since been shown to be French or Belgian. I am not aware of any that are suspected to be British. Our salts seem to echo the early shapes but not the fancy designs.

The flow seems to be:
- an early wave of poor quality pressed salts and plates from the USA <1830
- a higher quality response from British factories to these imports
- separate development of early pressed glass in France and nearby c1829 - 1840
- shared mould makers between England and France
- but little sign of glass itself moving back and forth over the channel in this early period

Glass designed AND manufactured pre 1845 is tough to find.
I have about a dozen examples, half British, four French, two American from the early wave of pressed salts.

[flying free]

Could that lack of glass from England  be because the tax laws inhibited production up to the mid/late 1840s(can't remember the date it was repealed)
I can't think it inhibited production of luxury glass and I feel I've read a recent document that supports this, but it possibly inhibited the production of large quantities of mass production.  Perhaps there was a long tail effect of that and it continued for years after it was repealed.


So, my take of the contemporary to the time report from 1845 I've read is that the French makers ( did the unthinkable in terms of competition?) banded together as a group and commissioned high quality molds to be made, at enormous expense to them.  They produced catalogues to support this effort and then went on to sell those mold made glass items in a hugely and wildly successful way. 
(This is my 'interpretation' of what Neuwirth wrote in Farbenglas 1 page 275, directly from the report from Batka, 1845, pp.878,879)

Which is why I wondered whether they'd sent them in bulk across the channel to be distributed here.

[neilh]

I think early British moulds were made in Birmingham until individual glass houses set up their own moulding departments in the 1840s. Your point about the tax could well explain the limited amount of early English pressed glass. You can see in the design registrations, there was very little relating to glass until late 1846 when it takes off. I also think there was a significant jump in technical ability at the same time allowing for a larger range of items to be made. The first pressed suites seem to come in around the mid 1850s.

[flying free]

I've a funny feeling I read something many years ago about Baccarat developing a mass producing blowing technique machine or something.  I can't remember the detail because it wasn't something I understood particularly well at the time I read it.  Perhaps that spurred them onto producing the molds, in order to make most use of the machines/technique?

Need to look that info up again as it might go some way to explaining why they thought this route of making very expensive molds was a good bet.

[flying free]

I'm sure you know this but I didn't
According to this report from 1854, pressed glass was invented in America and it was only in 1837 that they started making pressed glass drinking glasses:
The World of Art and Industry published 1854 , no page numbers but is a comment directly below the start of Section III Manufactures of Glass
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_World_of_Science_Art_and_Industry_Il/Zjk_AAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=hock+glass+1837&pg=PA220&printsec=frontcover

[flying free]

I think early British moulds were made in Birmingham until individual glass houses set up their own moulding departments in the 1840s. Your point about the tax could well explain the limited amount of early English pressed glass. You can see in the design registrations, there was very little relating to glass until late 1846 when it takes off. I also think there was a significant jump in technical ability at the same time allowing for a larger range of items to be made. The first pressed suites seem to come in around the mid 1850s.

Neil do you know what these molds were made from?  Were they cast iron do you know? I'm asking because there is an interesting piece of info in Farbenglas that I've just come across regarding the French molds and how much they cost to model along with the sketches. I think that information could imply perhaps that economically it makes it much more likely that the glasses come from France and the conglomerate of St. Louis, Baccarat, Choisy and Bercey rather than elsewhere.

[neilh]

The Pottery Gazette refers to Iron Moulds in the mid Victorian period, whether they started off that way in the 1830s I don't know.

[flying free]

Thanks Neil.

In Farbenglas I Neuwirth refers to Batka's contemporary report of the time (page 275):

- Batka praises the way the factories St.Louis, Baccarat, Choisy and Bercey use the 'brass press molds' (my underlining) as joint property and how the factories worked together on this project.

and the Batka report also says:
-  '....The costs for the sketches and the modeling of the brass molds for the pressed glasses are said to have cost more than 100,000 francs alone, and still their use has bought these companies more than ten time enough to cover the expense'. 

So, if I'm right on conversion, from 1840 to now that's about c. 3,400,000 francs in today's money.  To provide the sketches and the modeling of the brass molds.  Very expensive.

On that basis, it's understandable why it was a joint effort by the 4 companies, but also understandable that their efforts to market and sell to the world (Launay Hautin catalogues with their designs for each piece that look to my eye almost architectural in their accuracy) to recoup that money must have been enormous I presume. 
Therefore I think it's most likely my becher came from France rather than elsewhere.


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