Topic: Edinburgh Crystal Quality

[Marg Delaney]

I would appreciate it if anyone can help me.  I recently purchased through Ebay UK, two Edinburgh Crystal Champagne Flutes (Iona Design) to replace one that I broke years ago. Glasses duly arrived and I was horrified and disgusted with the differences and the quality of the ones that I received.  Needless to say I contacted the seller who told me that they are Edinburgh Crystal, but there was a change in the manufacturing in latter years.

This is his argument: "The glasses sent are Iona Champagne glasses made at Edinburgh Crystal. If they do not match yours exactly its because of the handmade production technique changes over the 20 year period they made these glasses. Had you been aware of how these vary you could have asked me for more details before agreeing to purchase. These are likely a later production than yours but still Edinburgh Crystal Iona Champagne glasses as stated in my listing. You can see this by comparing my pics of them to the ones on this website. http://www.replacements.com/webquote/ediion.htm"

I have looked at the Replacements site, and I agree that the Replacements ones do look like the ones that he has sent me, but I am still skeptical that the ones he has sent are genuine.  They have no hallmark etched anywhere and are narrower, shorter and missing a large crystal area above the stem. The base is also a lot smaller.

I have read here that Edinburgh Crystal may have produced pressed glass.  Is this true? If so can anyone shed some light on this subject.

My glass is the one on the left of the pictures.

Many Thanks!

[brucebanner]

I would agree with what the seller has said, they are hand blown and will vary a great deal. The ones you have for replacements are not signed because they are second quality hence the size difference probably, although my guess if your original ones are much earlier and better quality. The only way to solve the problem is to buy ones with the same or similar stamp and get detailed measurements in mm and weight in grams and pay extra for the first quality ones.

I  found a set of Stuart Crystal wine hocks today and they vary by as much as 6mm in height and 50 grams in weight and they are firsts signed.

Regards Chris.

[chopin-liszt]

I think it might depend very much on exactly when they were made.
If it was after 2006, "Edinburgh Crystal" has just been a brand name used by Waterford who took them over.
Waterford themselves now contract out of their country of origin for some ranges, (called Marquise), and they may well have contracted out to make Ionas.

So, you are not sure of the seller is actually correct in saying they were made at Edingburgh Crystal, he might have been correct in saying made for Edinburgh Crystal.
But them not being marked perhaps does indicate a second, which should have been clear from the listing, or perhaps that is something you should have known.

But his claim that they were made AT Edinburgh Crystal might be the thing to pick up on. Poorer quality is to be expected from the contracted out stuff.
I'm not sure where this leaves you.
Were they advertised as being of any particular age or quality?

[Paul S.]

I could be wrong, but seem to recall seeing that the manufacture of some, or all of E.C. in recent times, has been made in Czechoslovakia - or at least not in the U.K., as mentioned by Sue.      I have a feeling that some glass I've seen recently uses the backstamp of 'E. C. International'.
The backstamp for E.C., post WW II, included the wording 'MADE IN SCOTLAND' - this was a standard backstamp that existed until probably some time late in the C20/early C21, and if that wording is absent then it is unlikely that these glasses were made in Scotland.

Individual variation between identically patterned glasses, may have been more usual some years back when hand crafting glass was more the norm, but with modern production methods, I can't see the reasoning behind the sort of differences the op mentions.       Traditional hand skills in making three part drinking glasses shouldn't have changed, unless we are speaking of cutting corners, or making to a different specification.
We don't know for certain, but if it was the case that these glasses are missing the backstamp, because they are seconds, then the op might have a case insofar as seconds were not discussed, or ordered.             

E.C. were always known in particular for hand crafted cut lead crystal glass, not for pressed glass  -  certainly drinking glasses made by them in Scotland were not made by pressing.

"Had you been aware of how these vary etc"., is a non starter of an argument, since had you been aware of the difference then obviously you wouldn't have ordered them.

At least the op should request information from the seller to support the contention that these were made in Scotland, as apparently claimed, and not elsewhere, particularly as there is a lack of backstamp.

[chopin-liszt]

My own Iona wineglasses, purchased in '91, have a different stamp to your flutes, it reads;
EDINBURGH
SCOTLAND
in capital letters.
The star cutting on the base is like your old flutes, not the new ones. The points are long and slim and do not join up together towards the middle so much.

I can understand your concern. Iona is a particularly good pattern and a complex and expensive one to choose to buy in the first place.

[brucebanner]

It's not unusual at all to see the same pattern  glasses in different sizes around where I'm from, my wife who worked at Royal Brierley said it took some time to get the glass blowers to perfect a new shape and many mistakes were made,  I do well selling the local cut glass and see lots of variations, if it's not perfect then it's not signed and even signed ones have bubbles and faults, I charity shopped a set of Appin glasses with the same mark and I thought they were 50's polished pontils and plenty of wear an old shape that did not sell.

[Paul S.]

it might be argued that the seller's comment  ... "they are Edinburgh Crystal, but there was a change in the manufacturing in latter years." ...   should have put the onus on him to inform you that he was aware of this change in specification, and was this acceptable to you.

I don't doubt Chris' comments about seconds etc., but here the point is more that the op didn't at any time order them as seconds, neither did the seller advise that the glasses being sold were not firsts.

It's possible of course that size variation within a given pattern may be seen more often from certain factories, although I've nothing to support that idea, just that I've a set of sherries from Stuart, and oddly enough a late C19 set of half a dozen champers flutes that don't vary by more than 1.5 mm.            It's a point too that given many of these expensive glasses are sold within purpose made boxes, then size variation might look obvious and a problem with packing.
The lack of a backstamp may well mean seconds, so that is an argument for the buyer to pursue, in addition to the probability that these were not made in Scotland . 

What was the mark Chris on your E.C. Appin glasses  -  do you mean the same backstamp as Sue mentioned?      Is Appin still made do you know?

Meant to say.............   the appearance of an almost 'pressed' type of finish on modern cut glass, is almost certainly the result of over keen acid washing to remove grinding/polishing marks, and this has been standard practice for some years.        All a case of economics - it's a way of  speeding up the process of finishing the glass, but as a consequence destroys what should be the sharpness of the cut pattern, and makes for an almost pressed look.

[brucebanner]

Same as the op, I have seen it a lots of  times on other patterns  but on older glass, I have three 50's baluster Gerogian  copy's with it on, but they are all packed away as I'm moving house.

[Paul S.]

yes, I should have looked more carefully  -  it's the earlier mark which includes MADE IN SCOTLAND.

[Marg Delaney]

Thank you all so very much for making the time and effort to reply to my query.  Your responses make me feel more confident in my argument about these glasses.

While I am a novice, I do realise that each glass will be different to the next and as I have sets of 6 of the whisky, white wine, sherry, liqueur glasses and a whisky decanter and a sherry decanter and full dressing table set, as well as my flutes, the quality of these supposed "Edinburgh Crystal" is horrible.  Think of them being like Cristal d'arques  stuff.

I am taking this matter further with Ebay.

Once again, many, many thanks

Marg

BTW This is what the listing says, and he is still selling pairs on Ebay...
http://www.ebay.com/itm/cc428-SCARCE-PAIR-EDINBURGH-CRYSTAL-6-3-4-IONA-CHAMPAGNE-FLUTES-GLASSES-/262934645080?hash=item3d38204958:g:waMAAOSwOgdYyPCm

Hi, welcome to my listing and thanks for looking.

 

Name: Edinburgh Crystal, Scotland.

Type: Iona champagne glasses.

Quantity: 2

Date: 1970s.

Size: 17.3cm.

Weight: 366g.

Condition: Very good.

Comments: Very hard to find, no others available on eBay.

 He also states:
I have tried to give the best description I can, if you think I have mis-described it in any way please let me know. Please check that it is the correct item needed as I will not accept returns because it is the wrong size or style you required.

All parcels will be sent registered post (unless otherwise specified).

Please bear in mind that as a general rule all used glassware will inevitably have the odd light mark or two. Any damage (e.g. chips, cracks, bruising, stains etc) will be mentioned.

On purchase you are acknowledging the above.


I think I really have won this argument....