Topic: 2 lovely etched flagons decanters, poss Dutch?

[Lustrousstone]

I think I would go with 1936 and Hill Ouston for several reasons. The pontil mark is suspiciously rough for a start and looks to have been done with a relatively modern coarse grinding wheel, as per modern Chinese and some Italian stuff; if it was genuine period, it would either have a snapped pontil mark or be done with a wheel of the same grade as that used for the engraving. Why would they have a coarse wheel? The metal also looks too clear. The pair are too identical and look a pretty fair match to that auction catalogue. I suspect the windmill is a fantasy or naive windmill too, so may not be a good pointer for origin

[Paul S.]

Christine's reasons for suggesting modern sound rational and I'd be tempted to agree with the indication of C20, on the basis of those thoughts.

I've had a look in McConnell's 'Decanter book which was given as the primary reference source in the first link from m, and the shape of these things seem to have remained fairly consistent with their twin handled shaft and globe design, rigaree decoration and the use frequently of  engraving showing diving birds and windmills.           Examples are known with one handle and some without any, and some with stoppers too.

Quoting from Andy McConnell's book (page 405 - 406), when speaking of revival/reproduction styles etc. he writes  ...............

""Salviati's most popular reproduction was a thin-walled, twin handled shaft-and-globe encased within a series of pinched vertical ribs, and often crudely engraved.   An ancient form, known in Norway as a Ziratflasker (plate 569; see also plate 220), numerous other makers were soon copying Salviati's reproduction.     According to Eastlake in 1868, versions made across Europe 'are now produced at the price of a common decanter' (plate 571).""

McConnell's ref. to his plate 569 shows original and revived examples of Ziratflasker  -  1: an amethyst (although to me it looks like cranberry:)) Venise example, probably Low Countries, c1700;     2: Dark green example crudely engraved with diving birds, Bohemian, 1880s or 1930s;    3: Colourless Venise example, late 17th century.
In numerical order these pieces shown have  -  one handle  -  two handles  -  without handles, and most of the early examples look to have had a quite substantial 'kick' in the base.

McConnell also includes a reproduction of an illustration from a 1936 H-O. catalogue, for which the original catalogue caption reads:
"8240 - DUTCH SPIRIT BOTTLE WITH STOPPER.  -  Engraved Vine   - Height 11.1/2 in. -  42/- pair (Sterling two pounds and ten pence in decimal)".
The authors own text accompanying this illustration reads:
""Plate 571. Illustration of a 'Dutch' spirit bottle' from Hill-Ouston's 1936 wholesale catalogue.   It is decorated with engraved diving bird, similar to those on Plate 569/2""

Finally, McConnell's book reproduces copy of a Punch (C19 British mildly satirical weekly magazine) cartoon showing dinner guests seated at table on which the distinct shape of a Ziratflasker can be seen.          Part of the caption reads  "Plate 570.   Venetian revival Ziratflasker were sufficiently recognisable by 1886 to become an easily identified decanter form for a Punch cartoonist."           

Shame that Andy McConnell's book isn't more widely available - we can't reproduce the images here of course - so impossible to appreciate the pictures shown in his book from words alone.

Sorry - had to revise some of this wording  .............    does the name 'Ziratflasker' have an easily translatable meaning, in English.

Ref.  'The DECANTER An Illustrated History of Glass from 1650.  -  Andy McConnell  -  2004.
Invaluable reference source for anything to do with decanters and much else besides relating to the history of glass - truly a marvellous book.      All credit for the above information is to Andy McConnell and his book  -  none of this information is mine in origin.

[Anne Tique]

Hay Paul,

I guess that word must be Scandinavian as it's not Dutch, perhaps Norwegian. Zirat I can imagine to be translated as jewellery or something like that, as in Dutch it's spelled 'sieraad',  pronounced similarly and flasker must translate as bottles ... any Scandinavian members here who can confirm?

[flying free]

another one  - looks much older than op's to me

http://www.proantic.com/display.php?mode=obj&id=263095

and another

http://www.proantic.com/display.php?mode=obj&id=257484

There's a difference in the making - the base is kicked up and the trails go right under the base I think.

m

[Paul S.]

hello Anne  -  thanks for the stab at translation.              Forgetting to put brain in gear, and hearing of the Dutch/Low Countries association etc., I did first of all address my request for translation for your attention, wrongly as it happens, which is why I subsequently changed the wording.
Of course the shekel then dropped, and although I didn't quote all of his text on this subject, can say that McConnell does in fact make a connection between this general shape and an historic Norwegian invention, which is the origin of the word 'Ziratflasker'.
So you were correct about the country of origin for this word            Have also only just realized the meaning of your opening word Hay
Gosh, if only I were a cunning linguist too -  but never any good at other folk's languages.

Looking at m's most recent links, would agree with the reasons for suggesting older  -  there is always something about old glass that gives it that  .......  old look  -  so think we are mostly in agreement that WH's pieces are probably first half C20.