Topic: E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849

[flying free]

Something else nagging me.

The Illustrated Exhibitor (20th Dec 1851 and as linked in #214) written description of the glass, doesn't seem to delineate the different types of glass it's discussing and runs it's section all into one as though the paragraph is almost entitled just 'glass' (see page 533-535)

 http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/weltausstellung1851d/0588?sid=fcfa58ce5d1cbdf1ba0d5ca0d89a779c

So this may be misinterpreting that writing, but just a few observations:

1) The first paragraph says they are going to talk about glass. 
First query - it says Mr Maes received a Council Medal for 'novelty of chemical application'. 
Mr Maes was Clichy.
 I have the book but my French isn't good enough to read it properly.  I'll double check what this was for if I can find it.



2) Second query:
The second paragraph says they were hoping to do a full description of Pellatt's glassmaking but didn't have space.
It then immediately goes on to discuss the beauty of the glass displayed by Naylor (a retailer I believe) and discusses the (Naylor's) glass shown on page 533 in the engraving (note the plate description under the engraving which says 'prize medal') with mid-sentence carrying on to page 535. 

Then on page 534 it shows an engraving of a large group of Bohemian glass

Page 535 carries on from 533 paragraph mid sentence, still discussing Naylor's glass.  It then mentions in the next sentence the Bohemian glass 'shown opposite' from various exhibitors (ie. page 534).  Carrying straight on in that para it goes onto discuss the beauty of Thomson's silvered glass.

I noticed two items in the engraving on page 534 (Bohemian glass items according to the plate description), which to me look as though they 'could' be silvered glass:
- the lidded goblet on the left of the right hand side 'group ' of glass
- the bowl on stand on the right hand side of that picture of Bohemian Glass on page 534. 

The lidded goblet has a familiarity about it to me. 
The bowl too.  It looks very similar to a bowl on stand shown in another link I gave where I said it was the only piece that looked as though it was silvered glass. ( I need to re-find that link to give a comparison.  Will find and amend this post to include).

[Paul S.]

quote from m  ......................  "I don't suppose you could push your luck and ask her for a photograph of another item to do with this silvered glass could you?     Just out of curiosity I'd love to see the plug in the bottom of this particular vase (see link) and I'd love to know why it appears to have a blue interior in the photographs online:    http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O6482/vase-hale-thomson-f/

sorry to say nothing came back from Judith Crouch.           why don't you send the lady a separate email to the usual V. & A. queries address, together with your link -  might just jog her mind.

[flying free]

aah thank you Paul for trying.

Kev (I think) did add some information that the description does in fact say when you click on details link, that there is a Varnish plug in the base of that vase.

So the outstanding question has to be why does the interior reflect as blue?   I believe it's a Bohemian vase, silvered on the inside which has then had an inverted glass v cone shape made for it, which has been silvered on the outside of the cone, then inset into the vase and both vase body and inset v cone sealed together at the rim with a silver band to finish it off.
I suppose the blue is probably just a reflection possibly.

The metal attachement round it's hips is interesting.  Did it get broken silvering it?  was it made that way?

It is a distraction to ask though as I don't know if it adds anything to this debate at the moment - I do feel that vase may not be English though. 
And if it is English (Rice Harris and Bacchus were making similar items and in red cased, or at least one of them was for the Great Exhibition), then where is the evidence that Whitefriars made it.

So far we have no evidence they made a single item that was silvered by F. H. Thomson, with the exception of one possible ink well.

m

[KevinH]

Re: the above post and my comment on the V&A details ...

The info about the plug is contained in the basic description, not via a link. It says:

The final stage was to seal the hole in the foot with a metal disc, in this example marked for Varnish's Patent.

[KevinH]

For general info, although I have been slow in preparing my own version of a timeline for who and what and where, I am getting much closer to a summary of responses, to various questions that have been raised in earlier posts.

My summary is based on details from the "big Whitefriars book".

[drewfind]

I humbly log back in today to mainly apologise to Flying Free, and Lustroustone, my comments were rash, rude and uncalled for, and there is no excuse.

The amount of research Flying Free has done is astonishing, and my gast has been flabbered, it makes my pitiful foray seem insignificant at best.
I have read through, and it is the most informative piece of work yet on the mercury glass process, anywhere! so thank you, not that you done it for me, but it has made me realise what an idiot I was too suggest that my research was an end to it, what did I know?Nothing, so it seems.

I am not, by nature, belligerent, confrontational nor controversial, and I have found it necessary to write this apology to anyone I have been rude to, but most of all Flying Free who has been the driving force behind this thread.

It was a case of too little knowledge in an arena which is multi faceted and indepth, and too little sleep trying to trawl my way through it.

I am hoping that you will accept my apology, these comments were really not in character for me.

Sincerely
Andrew

[Lustrousstone]

Apology accepted, thank you 

[flying free]

Apology accepted.


Moving on to 'Sago'- 

Thomson mentioned in the court case that in order to reduce costs (after May 1851) they had dealt with someone called Sago.

I've not had any luck, but just in case this was a typo i.e. a misunderstanding of what Thomson said in the courtroom as it was typed up,  or a contraction of a name (such as being typed 'Sago' instead of 'Saint Gobain' for example - just an example, but the only one I could think of that was relevant),
I have found a looking glass 'wholesaler' called Zuccani who was listed in the Great Exhibition list and was based in Brick Lane.

One source I found (list for Great Exh) said this (see page lxiii):
'Ernest Zuccani, Brick Lane, Spitalfielcls; Looking Glass Manufacturer.'
click here

The other a more recent list of Italians in London has listed them as:
'Zuccani Ernest, looking glass manufacture, wholesale & for exportation, & plate glass wareho. 40 & 41 Brick la. Spitalflds.'

I think they were going for quite a long time but even so I suspect if they were 'manufacturers' of glass we might have known of them.
Therefore I think they probably 'silvered' the glass they bought and then wholesaled it as 'looking glass'.  Or indeed just wholesaled glass perhaps, which might be where Thomson bought some of the stuff after May 1851.


Note:

Zuccani may NOT be the 'Sago' referred to. 

and it does not help with who made the vases and goblets etc type items though.

[flying free]

Topic:  Reply #139 regarding three silvered items in the CNAM in France -  Conservatoire national des arts et métiers

There are three Silvered glass items in the Conservatoire , one bearing the Varnish mark and two bearing the Thomson mark.

On reply #139 I said:
 'We might just have to accept this evidence from Barbara Morris' book for now and, if used anywhere, we should state we cannot corroborate it, and should also quote the Spectator article using a slightly different company name, for consistency:

'What is perhaps new to us here is a company name: Plate 14 on page 33 shows three silvered glass items "acquired in 1851 from the Silvered Glass Company". One item has the "Varnish" plug and the other two have "Thompson's". Location of the items: Conservatoire National des Arts et Mêtiers, Paris''[/b]

and

'Barbara Morris clearly knew the items had Varnish and Thomson plugs, but somehow she also had information that those in the CNAM were acquired from the 'Silvered Glass Company'.  What we don't know is how she got that information - i.e. was it from the purchase documentation held by the Conservatoire National des Arts et Metiers, from the 1851 acquisition?'


and I further mused:

'(I'm idly wondering, if they went to Paris to register a patent, as Varnish said in the court case that he and Mellish did, then perhaps they 'deposited' some of the evidence of the patented work in the CNAM?'



In fact under the heading 'Glass' on the attached link it shows that  M.Eugene Peligot was  Professor at Museum of Arts and Sciences; and was a Member of the Central Jury.

https://www.thegazette.co.uk/London/issue/21254/page/2602/data.pdf



I think it's possible the Museum of Arts and Sciences was or is the CNAM (see information in link below from page 692 as reference for this and where you can see M. Peligot is indeed listed)
click here

If Professor Peligot was a juror under the glass section then it is possible the three silvered items ended up in the museum as a purchase from the Great Exhibition in 1851 that way.


Again, no closer to knowing who made the vases and goblets, but Baccarat is in the mix possibly.




p.s. Re reply #220 - The Maes/Clichy award I think was for something not related to this subject.  So a sidetrack at the moment probably.

[flying free]

Re:  my reply #220 above where I mentioned there was something familiar about the goblet on the left of the second group of items pictured here:

http://digi.ub.uni-heidelberg.de/diglit/weltausstellung1851d/0588?sid=ab26db03e11467258d9f3c0d9754bb34

The familiarity I noticed was the strange shape of the stem,which together with the bowl shape reminded me of the Varnish goblet on the right in the group of this sale (once you've clicked on the link you need to scroll down to see the three goblets):

https://www.woolleyandwallis.co.uk/Lot/?sale=PG081013&lot=46&id=253606