Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. > British & Irish Glass
E.Varnish mercury glass with embossed seal, circa 1849
flying free:
Managed to find a picture of the glass chandelier ( James Powell & Sons)with some ruby glass on it, but can't find it on th e main V&A site:
http://media.vam.ac.uk/media/thira/collection_images/2006AT/2006AT4404.jpg
http://va.goodformandspectacle.com/things/2398
The only other piece I could find in red glass is a mold blown bell 1879 that is in copyright so pic not available except of a close up of the mold of the glass and colour:
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O4938/bell-sheridan-onslow-blackhall/
flying free:
I'm looking closely at this Bacchus decanter in the V&A and I see a thick layer of clear glass on the neck over the ruby underlayer/innerlayer, so presumably this was ruby cased clear and then cased opaque white glass before being cut.
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O326654/decanter-and-stopper-george-bacchus-and/
The photograph is interesting. The ruby neck has a strange orange cast to it. Probably the fact it's been photographed against a black background I guess.
However, I noted it because I 'd noticed a strange orange cast on a ruby and clear goblet I own and when I investigated further found it was made at St Louis. Similar time frame to this decanter as well.
I did a little experiment with all the red and pink glass bits I have. I wrapped some tin foil around the inner of the pieces or laid it behind the piece in the case of my red Clichy plate.
The only piece where the colour reflects and looks like the op's red goblet is on a piece of Whitefriars - a ruby jug 20th century. So I'm guessing the red needed to be a true red to show the silvered effect of the op's and the other red one I linked to on Ebay. i.e. Not pink, not pinky red or streaky red, but a good true red glass.
flying free:
engravings on pages between page 404 and 405 show an engraving of the top table at the York Banquet however the goblets cannot be seen.
The large silvered globe reflectors on eagle backs can be though:
Food, Cookery, and Dining in Ancient Times: Alexis Soyer's Pantropheon
By Alexis Soyer
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=MqTDAgAAQBAJ&pg=PA407&lpg=PA407&dq=patent+glass+silvering+company+york+banquet&source=bl&ots=Yu0vncgrRS&sig=ACfU3U1o5xhW8-ZaY1J2kickIIlKv0-6hA&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjcvpXa4ITkAhWZWhUIHfqbB-cQ6AEwAXoECAgQAQ#v=onepage&q=patent%20glass%20silvering%20company%20york%20banquet&f=true
flying free:
Possibly in answer to my questions ' did they buy in the red glass and re-melt' and 'could the red glass have been bought in?':
This is a report from 1843 on Bohemian glass.
The Mechanics Magazine 1845.
The report was by a French author written in 1843 and published in the Mechanics Magazine in 1845 because of the repeal of the excise laws.
Pages 398-400 inclusive explains how the red glass was made in sticks and then bought in by Bohemian makers from one maker of ruby glass. He said all the establishments he'd visited bought in their ruby glass sticks from M. Meyer at Stubenbach, near Berg-Reichenstein.
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=p9pQAAAAYAAJ&pg=PA427&dq=bohemian+opaline+glass&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi29bbN-4TkAhUymVwKHY19AEAQ6AEIMjAC#v=onepage&q=bohemian%20opaline%20glass&f=false
As I read it (open to correction here), one maker of Bohemian glass (possibly Neuwelt perhaps?) told him how the ruby glass was made, but that it was unstable/difficult so most bought in the sticks of red glass to use.
On page 399 it describes a colour called Bohemian Ruby Red and explains how that is made.
m
flying free:
This information is from the Art Union Journal (Monthly) volume X (ten) so possibly/presumably October 1848:
PAGE 327
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=47XlAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA327&dq=mr+Drayton+german+glass&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwibw_fpq43kAhVJ6KQKHfyHCPUQ6AEILDAB#v=onepage&q=mr%20Drayton%20german%20glass&f=false
'We understand that a very large assortment of the German glass is now in the process of manufacture, for the especial purpose of being subjected to the Draytonian process' (my words, i.e. silvered glass).
In the court case, Frederick Hale Thomson says of his partnership with Drayton that he was in the business of silvering glass and had carried it on 'since the Autumn of 1848'.
The timing means that it is very likely Hale Thomson was involved with the import of 'a very large assortment of the German glass' in some way and would then have had access to it.
We do not know at what point Hale Thomson (or indeed he and Drayton together) worked out that he could silver double sided glass and it would be better than having to make a liner for an existing 'normal single walled' vase. It might have been at the inkwell point as he says in the court case, but it may be he had already realised before that (i.e. the Autumn of 1848), that if they could silver inside two walls of glass rather than having to 'line' an existing vase (e.g. possibly the V&A example with the metal signed rim) it would be much better.
Hence the order for a very large assortment of the German glass. Ordered to meet the 'double walled' spec. perhaps? Where previously Mr Drayton had been using Bohemian glass items.
So in the autumn of 1848 /October 1848, Hale Thomson and Drayton were working on something together.
The German glass was ordered, Drayton went off the scene,leaving Hale Thomson to carry on the silvering business. Who then went into partnership with Varnish, a salesman.
The stock of 'a very large assortment of German glass'? Was it ordered in double walled variety because of Hale Thomson's idea? Did it stay with him when he parted company at some point from Drayton?
How long did it take to arrive in the UK? did it arrive in 1849?
Hale Thomson submitted the drawings including a double walled goblet for patent 12,905 on 19 December 1849.
Had they already been made? Did he already know by Dec 1849 he could silver them internally and the silvering would stick/not go get brown spots after a while as Drayton's original silvering method with cloves did?
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=lwsCQtrhxFkC&pg=RA2-PA3&dq=hale+thomson+silvered&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjytqKg27bjAhU0QUEAHUl-DzQQ6AEILTAB#v=onepage&q=hale%20thomson%20silvered&f=false
If he did, then they must have already been made and designed and supplied for him to have tried it.
His and Varnish's agreement to hire Mellish (Mellish recommended by Mr Powell of Whitefriars Glassworks) appears to have been done on 26th December 1849.
That is AFTER he and Varnish had already submitted drawings of double walled glass including a goblet to the Patent office.
https://www.oldbaileyonline.org/browse.jsp?id=t18520405-382&div=t18520405-382&terms=mellish_varnish#highlight
In the court case Hale Thomson talks about 'he (my words - he was referring to Mr Mellish) was to go to Mr. Powell's glass works to superintend the preparation of the glass for silvering'. He doesn't talk about glass being blown at Whitefriars. I wonder if Whitefriars were cutting the glass designs, i.e. the patterns onto blank pieces which had already been supplied - maybe that 'large assortment of German glass'? or cutting holes in the bottom so they could be silvered internally through the hole - hence the numbers engraved on the bottoms of the glass centres to match the goblets.
The York Banquet was in October 1850 where silvered goblets were presented to Prince Albert and the Lords Mayor.
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