Topic: Monart or Vasart ink bottle?

[glassobsessed]

When I bought this bottle I assumed Vasart but the shape along with some of the canes has me hoping for Monart, the orange yellow and blue 'flower' canes in the base match some shown here:
https://www.ysartglass.com/Moncat/PageCanes.htm

It is 5 inches tall the stopper is roughly ground and a loose fit. Looks similar to shape SI apart from the profile of the neck and proportion of the stopper:
https://www.ysartglass.com/Moncat/PageBottle.htm

John

[glassobsessed]

The canes.

[KevinH]

I am sure that this botlle is one a group of "unknown maker" items (some paperweights as well as bottles are known). Bob Hall's book, Scottish Paperweights shows a few bottles in the "unknown maker" group.

The examples of the "unknown maker" bottles I have seen all had early Ysart canes and often with some Strathearn canes, too. Also the stoppers showed a clear "tapered" shape and were a loose fit in the neck.

Some looked like copies of Vasart (Ysart Brothers period) bottles with the Ysart style striped neck and well section. Others had clear glass for the neck and well sections. The body shapes varied from "just like older Vasart" to "slimmer / rounder" shapes and often with not much of a neck rim. Often the well section of the body was asymetrical.

All of the ones I am aware of that have been tested under UV light show a blue fluorescence under shortwave uv which is consistent with Vasart Ltd and Strathearn items. However, they do not show the "yellow-green" under longwave uv (blacklight) which is the case (as far as I am aware) for all of Monart, Ysart Brothers, Vasart Ltd and Strathearn.

The lack of yellow-green fluorescence under longwave uv, as well as the differences in variouis visual features, show these to be of a grouo of their own.

No firm date has been put on these "unkniown maker" items but it was proably after Strathearn closed in 1980.

[chopin-liszt]

Do we have any clues about the "unknown maker"?
Is it a different person to the "Scottish maker" we're not allowed to name in certain situations, or, could it be "a different (unknown) Scottish maker", or any combination?
Where does Frank Eisner fit in? He's another "different" maker, but still sort of Ysart related.
Is this "Unknown maker" somebody who did work with the Ysarts at some time, given he had Ysart materials?

(Or am I just suffering from having conspiracy theories erupting from every orifice at the moment? Ysart stuff is complicated.)

[glassobsessed]

Thank you Kevin. Not what I was hoping to hear but intriguing none the less.

My first reaction is along the lines of is it the same maker as the fake PY weights? Presumably there is a small pool of possible candidates and was the motivation purely monetary gain or was there some other factor in their manufacture? I can see why whoever did make them is saying nowt, could that secret be a bit of burden I wonder... Then again, given they were made to deceive in the first place the maker probably has little in the way of conscience.

John

[fatbelly]

Yeah well said.
I second third and fourth that sentiment.
FB.

[tropdevin]

***

I thought there were two quite different groups of Paul Ysart fakes, with different fake signature canes, and varied technical quality - presumably from two different sources?  That does not rule out one being the source of these bottles, but the PY fake paperweights were signed to try to convince the buyers that these were Paul Ysart pieces, whereas these bottles are not.

Alan

[fatbelly]

Not necessarily two different sources could easily be the same “unknown” person just tweaking their technique to produce two different types of fakes to create more confusion amongst collectors and in the first instance specialist dealers.And that’s exactly what they did and it’s only research by the likes of KevinH and specialist weight dealers like yourself that keeps most people safe as the knowledge has been shared and we all know how to spot the fake PY weights.There are still people buying sleeper PY fakes without a clue.Same applies to these bottles.Not PY but most definitely Ysarty.Made to confuse deceive and not without some skill.Just my rant and my opinion though.FB