Topic: Scottish paperweight puzzle... ID = Caithness related to the "Zodiac" Collection

[RAY]

it's caithness

this is what Allan Scott said

centre cane is from our 1983 "zodiac" design which had all 12 signs in it,and the actual pattern is that of our 1981 "initial"designs so the general opinion is that because the canes are obviously not top quality ,that it was probably a "homer" for one of the workers or their family ,friends etc


thanks Allan

[Anne]

Allan and Ray, thank you. This makes perfect sense. From what my friend said, about her hubby being given a box of these whilst doing some building works in a glass works, I have long suspected they were either seconds or trial pieces. The date fits as well, so I think that wraps the puzzle up nicely. Much appreciate all your time and thoughts over this. (I don't suppose Allan would remember a Mancunian Jamaican builder coming to do some work then would he? That would be the icing on the cake!  :lol:   )

[KevinH]

Yes, it's good to get a resolution on a second look. And I also add my thanks to Allan (via Ray) for the information.

However, having perused my Caithness references, I would add that the design "Initial" had 6 surrounding canes rather than 5 and had a base of coloured ribbon twists rather than spaced filgree, which is a predominate feature of Anne's. (The idea for the "Initial" weight was that the customer could request a personal initial to be placed as the central cane, hence the name.)

There was also another design in 1981 called "The Glassmaker" which used a very similar ribbon twist base as "Initial" but this did have a 5-cane surround. (This latter design used silhouette canes depicting glass making tools.)

I'm not suggesting that Allan's information is incorrect. But perhaps whoever made Anne's weight could have based the design on a memory of at least a couple of weights rather than one specific one?

Whatever happened, it is certainly true that Anne's item is sufficiently different from the production "Initial" and "The Glassmaker" designs, and very much different from the "Zodiac" design, to have completely baffled me in its identification. 

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Oh, and as an extra thought, particularly for Ray, in relation to his Bar Set item with "hollow" cane ( http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,3024.0.html ), take a close look at the surrounding canes in Anne's weight. There are canes with an apparent hollow centre and with a tiny rod in an otherwise "hollow" centre. So, had Anne's weight not had the identifiable central cane, maybe we would have been making some sort of Ysart / Vasart / Strathearn connection? What a difference a cane makes  :!:

[Allan]

Hi,
   Just a note to say that you are probably right,Kev, that whoever made the weight was just using whatever was at hand and set up the design without really copying exactly the actual production designs.The company would of probably been against anyone duplicating exact designs for their own purposes.There are so many "homers"made in the glass trade that it must be a nightmare for people to find their origins.I know there has been a lot of what we call "name weights" made for workers relatives at birthdays and anniversaries,over the years, at Caithness which will no doubt drive collectors mad in the future trying to identify them. :lol:
                                      Allan

[Wuff]

I had seen a similar weight on ebay with the virgo symbol not too long ago - and now (arrived today) I bought one with the aquarius symbol myself - similar to Anne's - but with 6 (not just 5) canes surrounding the symbol cane. Whilst this fact alone will not be very interesting to most of you - there is a surprise:

It's etch signed "Caithness - Zodiac - Scotland" !

I guess, having a "non-existing" weight with Caithness signature just compensates my limited Caithness without signature .

But what do you, Allan, make of this? Would someone making a "homer" dare to "officially" etch sign this item?

[ALLAN]

Hi Wolf,
          Does your weight have any sort of number etched on the base.If it does it will be a legitimate weight.

[Wuff]

No number - just the "Caithness - Zodiac - Scotland" - which looks entirely authentic (I have dozens to compare it with).

[cfosterk]

Hi Anne,

Definitely Caithness/Whitefriars 'zodiac' central cane - the cane cane be seen in Robert Halls 'Scottish Paperweights' book illustrated on page 109. The cane is illustrated at around 2 o'clock.

I'm intriged by the manufacturer though....

[Wuff]

nadine is right now offering another one of these weights - this is already the fifth on i see - all with different zodiac signs - which brings me to my suggestion:

we have as 'official' caithness weights
- 'initial' of 1981: this design with a central letter, so the customer could decide which letter he wanted, e.g. initial of his name.
- 'the zodiac' of 1983 with all 12 signs.

we have several examples of these 'unknown' weights of the 'initial' design - but with a single zodiac cane in the centre. could it be that some customers saw the 'initial' design - and asked for a corresponding weight containing their zodiac sign? consequently a small number was made, possibly even upon request, without ever becoming an official design?

just a thought - wolf

[Alsretro]

...and another one turns up with what I think is the Zodiac sign for Scorpio. This one is also marked Caithness Zodiac Scotland and again with no number.
Alastair