Topic: Numbers scribbed on decanters

[Martyn1]

Thanks for posting the images for me. This last decanter has some wear on the lip and base - only the very edge of the bottle touches the table and it wobbles so not badly worn on the base edges.  It's a small bottle with a light grey tone.  I don't know if this is an early, little used, bottle or a victorian copy? I love the design of this one.

[Martyn1]

I would love to know what others think of the last decanter that I posted.  Does this look period 1830s or a victorian copy?

[Paul S.]

Martyn - apart from the fact that decanters have a limited following here, think also there's a limit to what is discernible - in terms of 'hallmarks' etc. - that can be seen on the screen, particularly when phone pix aren't perhaps the best.
As we've said, the face value appearance of a bottle is useful, but there are other features that are essential for determining if something is genuine period, and even then people will argue amongst themselves.
Perhaps time to view some antiques fairs and make comparisons - or museums etc.              On this one the 'wobble' aspect sounds unusual  -  don't recall having a bottle than wobbled, and doubt that 'millions' (referring to genuine c. 1830 bottles) could be corroborated, though no doubt many designs were common.

Other features to consider are .................       colour, seeds/stones, discolouration inside the body, is the cutting sharp, can you see grinding marks within the mitres  ..................   but even then separating something made c. 1830 and 1890 can't be easy.           Some people will suggest that the colour of the glass is most important feature from the Regency, then again others will say many bottles are known where the glass lacks any leaden hue.                 Most things that are genuinely old, have a certain something that can be seen, but perhaps not described easily.

Can't recall - do you have Andy McConnell's book?

 

[Martyn1]

Many thanks.  Unfortunately I do not have that book but aim to get it.  It has a small amount of frit visible in one spot and a light smoky grey tone. It wobbles because the base is slightly uneven and does not sit evenly on the table. This wobble is only slight though and it is still stable.

[Ekimp]

Looks like a nice decanter. I wouldn’t like to comment on age although I’m also still unsure of the etched numbers being used before later Victorian. I thought the etched numbers were to do with productionisation of manufacture during the later Victorian period. For example, making 100 number 14 stoppers for 100 number 14 bodies, rather than making a stopper to fit a particular decanter body. Maybe there were numbered settings on the grinding machines.

The only comment I would make about the decanter shown is I wonder about the quite long parallel stem of the stopper, maybe it looks more modern - that’s just a feeling.

[Paul S.]

as we've said before, this subject is perennial, and I seem to recall that that on one of the earlier occasions we spoke about the numerical value of these Nos.   -  mostly they're seen as single digits with a value of less than ten.             I was surprised to see one some years back that was something like 48 or similar, but that was very unusual.

Like Ekimp, I'm still worried that we have over-estimated - in terms of age, as to when such matching Nos. started.         Unfortunately, those people who are serious collectors of bottles, don't participate on this forum  -  whether they're of the opinion they're too clever to need us, or whether it's the case that we're too clever for them, I'm not sure               So, we continue with uncertainty.

[Martyn1]

  It has become apparent from people's comments that these things are difficult to date by the sound of it.  May be thats why there are so many in charity shops and boot sales.  The production numbers used by the Victorians makes sense to me.  I wander if there will be any definitive answer

[glassobsessed]

My understanding of the reason for having matching numbers is simply that the bottles and stoppers are ground/polished to fit individually, stoppers are unlikely to be interchangeable. Numbering them helps keep them matched up during and after production.

John

[Martyn1]

 Thank you John that's what i originally thought.  I have three un numbered ones which, hopefully, may be early ones but I'm not sure.  I have a few other three applied neck ring decanters all numbered.  I'm treating these as victorian copies until proven otherwise. Although I buy these cheap I'm probably going to stop buying them in the future unless the seller is absolutely guaranteeing their date. It sounds like even experts are unsure about dating them. I've shown them  to different people all with different opinions as to age.

[glassobsessed]

Antique glass is not an area I know much about, my interest has always been more 20th century. The best way to learn though is to pick up and handle as much as possible, that way you begin to notice the more subtle clues. Oh, and read as many books on the subject that you can lay your hands on, unfortunately no book is likely to be entirely error free!