Topic: pressed tumblers & goblets

[agincourt17]

Notes regarding goblet RD 147792 of 19 December 1861 - Parcel 4.

From TNA online registration summary:
Proprietor: David Henry Jacobs, 64 Crown Street, Finsbury Square, London. Item description: Pressed fluted leg mirror bowl goblet.

I haven't come across the term 'mirror bowl' before. Am I correct in thinking that it refers to the oval 'thumbprints' on the bowl?

There is another David Henry Jacobs registration from 64 Crown Street, Finsbury Square: RD 192792, registered 23 November 1865 - Parcel 9 ; pressed jug and mitre fluted bowl goblet pressed.

https://jacobstree.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Miscellaneous_London_Directories_1800-1838.pdf
shows that there were lots of Jacobs family members, many extensively involved in the glass trade in London, with several in the Finsbury/Finsbury Square area from the early 1800s through to the late 1830s, including in Crown Street, Finsbury, and some referring specifically to the occupants of 64 Crown Street.

In the early 1800s, Henry Jacobs seems to  have been involved with (and possibly even the proprietor of) the Phoenix Glass Works, Phoenix Street, Soho, and  is linked to an address in Crown Street [Finsbury]. I've drawn a blank, however, with researching the Phoenix Glass Works, Soho, as such.

In 1822, Henry Jacobs Jr (glass manufacturer) was at 64 Crown Street. In 1823/4 as a 'glass cutter & seller (flint)'. Henry Jacobs Jr. was aged about 29 at the time, so is probably the son of the Henry Jacobs mentioned in the early 1800s. In 1824, and  in 1928, Henry Jacobs was still at 64 Crown Street as a 'glass manufacturer', with Philip Jacob & Son as 'glass warehouse'  at the same address (then as 'cut glass warehouse') in 1828.

From the information I will present below, it seems that Henry Jacobs was the 'Son' in 'Philip Jacobs & Son, and that Henry's son, David Henry Jacobs was the registrant as above.


Prior to that, Holden's Directory 1805/07: Philip Jacobs, 25 Middlesex, Street, Whitechapel; glass cutter. in 1811, at 5 Middlesex Street as a glass dealer. 1817, at 14 Artlllery Passage, Bishopsgate, then in 1819 at the same address (but as glass dealer), then Philip Jacobs & Son (glass manufacturer).
Pigots Directory of 1832:  Philip Jacobs & So, 64 Crown Street, Finsbury; glass cutter & seller (flint). Also, at 53 Crown Street, Finsbury: Henry Jacobs, glass cutter & seller (flint).
Pigots Directory of 1836: Philip Jacobs & Son, 64 Crown Street, Finsbury; plain and cut glass manufacturer.
Robson's Directory of 1838 : Philip Jacobs & Son, 64 Crown Street , Finsbury; glass warehouse.

From:
https://www.british-genealogy.com/forum/threads/93682-Seeking-Jacobs-in-London/page2
"Philip Jacobs let out 14 Artillery Passage as tenements in 1824. He did not live at the address but was at 22 Earl St , [then at] Crown St Finsbury in 1835,  and his son Henry at 14 Mansell St in 1834 and 1841 64 Crown St. Philip was dead by 1845 and his son Henry died in 1862. Prior to that date Henry had been a bankrupt."

The London Post office Directory for 1843 lists Jacobs Philip & Son, wholesale glass warehouse, 64 Crown street, Finsbury. (Also listed was yet another Jacobs involved in the glass trade in Crown Street - Jacobs Abraham, wholesale glass warehouse, 14 & 15 Crown street, Finsbury).

I have no hard information as to what happened at 64 Crown Street between 1845 and when David Henry Jacobs appearing there as 'Proprietor' in the registration details for RD 147792 of 19 December 1861 - Parcel 4.
This still begs the question as to what was David Henry Jacobs' involvement at 64 Crown Street, Finsbury Square. in 1861 and 1862 and how much of  the business was as a manufacturer as opposed to  glass cutters, glass dealers etc. ?

I  have found a reference to David Henry Jacobs, (born 26 October 1823 in Shoreditch, London, and who died in 1904 in West Ham, Essex), and many more details about him and his family from 
https://www.wikitree.com/wiki/Jacobs-2668#Biography
confirming that He is indeed the registrant of RDs 147792 and 192792, and that is also the grandson of Philip Jacobs and son of Henry Jacobs.

In the 1841 census, St Leonard, Shoreditch, 64 Crown Street:  Philip Jacobs,70,Glass Manufacturer,Middlesex; David Henry Jacobs,15; Rachel Jacobs,15; Leah Jacobs,14.

1851 census: Shoreditch, London, 64 Crown Street: Henry Jacobs,Head,Mar,55,Glass Dealer,Stafford, Christ Church [Probably Christ Church Parish, Stafford Street, Marylebone); Elizabeth Jacobs,Wife,Mar,53,,Middlesex, St Botolphs; David Henry Jacobs,Son,Unm,26,Glass Dealer,Middlesex, Shoreditch; Servant.

1861 census: Shoreditch, London, 64 Queen Street. Henry Jacobs,Head,Mar,68,Glass Dealer,London, Middlesex; Elizabeth Jacobs,Wife,Mar,64,,London, Middlesex; David H Jacobs,Son,Unm,34,Glass Dealer,Shoreditch; Rachel Jacobs,Dau,Unm,30,,Shoreditch; Leonora [Leah] Jacobs,Dau,Unm,28,,Shoreditch; London; Louis H Nerwich,,,13,,Dublin, Ireland.

1871 census: Shoreditch, London, 7 Sun Street. David Henry Jacobs,Head,Mar,47,Glass Dealer,Shoreditch, Middlesex; Elizabeth Jacobs,Mother,Wid,64,,London, Middlesex; Leah Jacobs,Sis,Unm,40,,Shoreditch, London.

Also in 1871, in London, David Henry Jacobs is 'Elected Master of The Ancient Guild of Gold and Silver Wyre Drawers (City Livery Company).'

1881 census: Shoreditch, London, 7 Sun Street. David Henry Jacobs,Head,Mar,57,Glass & China Dealer,Middlesex, Shoreditch' Leah Jacobs,Sis,Unm,52,,Middlesex, Shoreditch; also a domestic Servant.

1891 census: Shoreditch, London, 7 Sun Street. David Henry Jacobs,Head,M,67,Glass & China Dealer,London, 7 Sun Street, Finsbury; Mary Broadfoot,Boarder,Wid,50, Herefordshire; Florence Broadfoot aged 21, Single, Boarder, No occupation.

1901 census: Shoreditch, London, 7 Sun Street. D H Jacobs,Head,M,77,Glass Dealer,Shoreditch, London; M A Jacobs,Wife,M,61,,Herefordshire; also enumerated is A A Beaufort,Son,Single,25,Assistant, London, Islington but he has not been identified and may not be a relative.  ?

Record of a marriage between David Henry Jacobs and Mary Ann Broadfoot between July and September 1900 and September 1900 [Shoreditch 1c 292]

1904 electoral register shows that David Henry Jacobs was still at 7, Sun Street Finsbury, in 1904. (presumably not long before his death).

Also in 1871, in London, David Henry Jacobs is 'Elected Master of The Ancient Guild of Gold and Silver Wyre Drawers (City Livery Company).'

Fred.

[Paul S.]

very many thanks Fred for taking the amount of time that obviously you do, to provide such comprehensive background information.

Like you, I've never heard of the descriptive term 'mirror bowl goblet' to describe those ovals, lenses or thumbprints seen commonly on pressed and cut wines, ales and goblets from second half C19 - but your reasoning could well be correct, though difficult to prove  -  I don't recall seeing that sort of description in the books.
The slightly later Reg. 192792 that you mention, for another goblet  -  is in the pipeline to appear in this sequence of tumblers/goblets, and should be up for posting in a day or two.           As you will see in due course, this later item is another goblet, but instead of lenses/ovals the decoration on the bowl is in the form of upright moulded mitres.

As always you've put much flesh on the bones and brought these characters and their business dealings back to life, and is much appreciated

[Paul S.]

and four more ………………..

one ……             Regs. 189615/16 dated 11.09.1865  -  Robinson & Bolton.
The Victorians were very keen on the word goblet  -  have a look in Silber & Fleming (c. 1880s)  -  though there are a couple of decades separating the date of Registration of these two and the publication of the household catalogue, so perhaps ideas changed.            Looking in the Kew Register, neither of these designs were provided with a specific description, and we might now be inclined to think that 189615 with its tallish bowl to be more akin to an ale, though 189616 does appear more a legitimate goblet shape.

two ……              Reg. 189705 dated 12.09.1865  -  James Derbyshire & Bro.
Something lost in translation possibly here  -  most oddly the Kew Register description reads 'goblet', though it's obviously a tumbler.
Coincidentally, in the Register, the entry for 189705 falls immediately after 189616 (above), and it's perhaps tempting to think the clerk entered the word goblet on the wrong line  -  but that's very unlikely  -  nonetheless the description for 189705 is a complete mystery, as you can see from looking at the shape in the attached picture.
The design of this tumbler makes me think of the rear of an elephant  -  heavy convex pillar moulding - a feature that occurs as decoration on decanters from the very early Victorian period (the opposite of pillar flutes, which are concave).      This style of moulding makes the tumbler appear older than it is, a very dated look.
I've never seen an example  -  can't find one in the books either, and have forgotten to look under Derbyshire in the Board's archive - perhaps we have had a picture of this design previously and I'm unaware of the fact.

three  ........        Reg. 189948 dated 21.09.1865  -  David Jacobs.
Reading Fred's extensive notes regarding the history of the Jacobs family, it's not easy to see to what extent they remained manufacturers at the time of this particular Registration, or perhaps dealers only  -  most of the real glass activity appears to have occurred during the first half of the C19.
I'd suggest this Registration is legitimately a goblet, though the Kew archives are quiet on the matter of description  -  the decoration is simply pressed vertical mitres.

As always, dimensions are absent entirely.           If I were offered a choice of one from this group of four, there's no hesitation  -  the Derbyshire tumbler.          Hope someone has an example to show.
Legitimate period examples of all these pre 1884 designs, should in theory carry a lozenge, in relief, showing details which can be checked in the books.

[agincourt17]

Notes regarding RDs 189615 and 189616, registered on 11 September 1865 - Parcel 1 by [Peter] Robinson and [Edward] Bolton, Orford Lane Glassworks, Warrington, Lancashire.

P.S., TNA online registration details summary at
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=glass+design+189615
gives the address as ... "Oxford Lane Glassworks"... (a transcription error from the original handwritten register entry - see original entry in Jenny Thompson p102 which definitely reads "Orford"...).

I don't have any reference photos of actual items with these RD numbers, and neither  can I find any online.

There were six Robinson and Bolton registered glass designs:

105196 – P2 on 23 June 1856
187536 – P3 on 14 June 1865
189615 – P1 on 11 September 1865
189616 – P1 on 11 September 1865
195272 – P1 on 17 February 1866 ( described as a "tumbler")
212432 - P4 on  18 October 1867

and now the design representations have all been shown (along with photos of actual items, apart from 189615 & 189616) and lots of details about the Robinson and Bolton proprietors and glassworks on the GMB in the following threads:

https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,58887.msg333417.html#msg333417
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,52818.msg300011.html#msg300011
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,40114.msg316665.html#msg316665
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,66981.msg373868.html#msg373868
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,66161.msg370020.html#msg370020
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,59825.msg337879.html#msg337879
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,48127.msg271157.html#msg271157
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,62842.msg352781.html#msg352781

Fred.

[agincourt17]

Neil's Manchester Glass website at

https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/derbyshire-brothers-designs-by-date/derbyshire-brothers-1864-1865

describes the James Derbyshire & Brother RD 189705 of 12 September 1865 -Parcel 2 as

Odd-looking tumbler. The bottom half of the glass has some vertical deep cuts. The rest of the glass is plain.  The glass widens at the mid-body and shrinks back again at the top

but there are no photos, and I don't know of any either.

Fred.

[agincourt17]

Notes on goblet RD 189948, registered on 21 September 1865  - Parcel 10 by David Jacobs [Proprietor], 33 Haymarket, London:

Please note that this is NOT the same registrant as that for the  goblet RD 147792 of 19 December 1861 - Parcel 4, who was Proprietor: David Henry Jacobs, 64 Crown Street, Finsbury Square, London, with details on replies #26 and #30 above.

I don't know of any photographs of a goblet from this RD number.

From
https://jacobstree.co.uk/2015/11/16/henry-jacobs-1833-as-son-of-moses-jacobs-1794-1856/

David Jacobs was a glass warehouseman, born in London about 1820.

In the 1851 & 1861 censuses he is at 33 Haymarket, London, with his wife, Matilda, with the business under the name of David Jacobs'. He had married Matilda Rebecca Jacobs (his 2nd cousin) in 1848.  The marriage certificate names Moses Jacobs[1974-1856], china dealer, as his father. In 1869, David Jacobs died in Charing Cross, a "glass manufacturer", leading Matilda a widow.  David leaves his business to his 2 sons, Philip David and Angelo Jacobs.

David had a younger brother, Henry (c.1832 - 1911), born in London but lived in America (probably Kentucky) between 1855-1857. Henry moved back to England, and was in Brighton until 1871 (in a business and house belonging to his elder brother, David). Henry left Brighton in 1871 and established himself at 68, High Holborn. Died in Finchley in 1911 ("formerly a glass merchant") aged 79.

Fred.

[Paul S.]

regret I can't offer anything to match that level of academic input Fred - marvellous research indeed - but will offer a few additional words regarding Neil's comments on 189705 - the 'odd-looking tumbler' from Derbyshire.

The unidentified u. tumbler that I posted last year  -   https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,68378.msg380424.html#msg380424  -  shows very substantial pillar moulding similar to 189705, so presumably this early Victorian design feature not perhaps as rare as might be thought.           I see my final comment, as to date - re the linked example - suggested something nearer to the middle of the C19, and this is now perhaps justified bearing in mind we do in fact have a Registration date of 1865 for the Derbyshire item.
I have an intense dislike of 'provenance by similarity' - it's dangerous and perpetuates errors - but it would have been more than useful if we could have said this feature of heavy pillar moulding might have linked my uranium tumbler to James Derbyshire.        But I'm not going to say that

I see also that Neil corroborates my comments about the apparent wrong description shown in the BoT Register, where 189705 is noted as a 'goblet' rather than a tumbler.

Will have a day or two off, and then the exercise will continue.

[Paul S.]

and a few more …...……………

one ……………….   Reg.191995 dated 04.11.1865  -  Franz Steigerwald of St. Paul's, London, and described as an 'ornamental design.
                        I don't know this Company - importers perhaps since the area around St. Paul's Cathedral (London), probably not known for
                        glass houses.          The Kew Register is silent on the nature of their activities, perhaps someone else is able to add information.
                        I've added two pix for this Registration, as the writing  -  beautiful as it is  -  lacks clarity when the pictures are re-sized.

two ……………….  Reg. 192792 dated 23.11.1865  -  David Henry Jacobs.         Again, two pix just to make sure the description can be read
                       clearly.
                        I think it reads  "Pressd. leg mitre fluted bowl goblet - Pressd.
                       Fred has already drawn attention to this further Rd. from Jacobs  -  back a few posts - and this goblet shows again what seems
                        to have been a liking that Jacobs had for vertical pressed mitres.

three …………….  Reg. 193419 dated 14.12.1865  -  James Derbyshire & Bro.    The classic barrel-shaped tumbler - possibly a rather dated design
                       even in the mid 1860s, and described as "Plain barrel-shaped tumbler - ornamental shape".      Have to say I've not seen an
                       example of this design.

four ………………  Reg. 198277 dated 16.06.1866 -  James Derbyshire & Bro.       Seem to recall we've had discussions on this, or another very
                       similar design, in recent weeks  -  it's likely that this is one of the four Derbyshire Regs. shown in Ray Slack's book, where he
                       mentions a goblet that was Registered on this particular date.          Unfortunately, the pix in Slack's book aren't too clever and
                       not easy to make a match.

Since there are six pictures, then two will be carried over to the next post.

[Paul S.]

and the last two Registrations  -  193419 and 198277 - both for Derbyshire  ……………...

[agincourt17]

Notes on RD 191995, registered on 4 November 1865 - Parcel 4 by Franz Steigerwald and Company of 1 Godliman Street and 19 Great Carter Lane, St. Paul's , London:

It would appear that the registration was made by a British company representing or acting an arm or agent or importer for a Bavarian glass manufacturer (most likely the Theresienthal glassworks). So I suspect that the design was for a goblet most likely to have had the mould-blown bowl with a hand-worked stem and foot typical of the Theresienthal pieces.

The Steigerwalds were an extremely wealthy, important and influential dynasty in the Bavarian glass trade. They also had business and family links with the wealthy Poschinger Bavarian glass  family.

Franz Steigerwald Senior left his hometown, Prague, with his family in 1808. He had three sons - Wilhelm (1804-1869), Franz [Junior] (?- 1861) and Emmanuel.  Steigerwald Senr. opened a glass  finishing workshop and a glass saleroom in 1812.

The art of glass making in Germany developed from the tradition of the so-called “flying” glass works. In order to make glass, great amounts of wood were needed to fire the furnaces and to produce potash, which is one of the basic materials. Hence, it was no wonder the Bavarian Forest turned into a glass making region in the Middle Ages. Once the timber surrounding their mobile (flying) glass works had been cut down, the glass makers moved on and set up their workshops in a new place. It was only in the early 19th century that it became possible to transport large amounts of wood over long distances and people began to establish “permanent” glass works, or “hüttes”.

In September of 1836 Franz Steigerwald Jnr. founded such a glass works in the form of a manufactory, and named it “the “Royally Privileged Crystal-Works Theresienthal“ after Queen Therese of Bavaria, wife of Ludwig I. The King himself supported Steigerwald in establishing the manufactory and granted him monopoly to certain kinds of glass. Theresienthal did not fail to keep its promise; in a short period of time, the crowned glass with the special lustre managed to conquer the high society of the great cities, the royal courts of Europe, and the hearts of crystal glass lovers around the world.

Franz Steigerwald died in 1861 in Deggendorf Niederbayern, Bavaria  and was succeeded by the “Glassbaron” Johann Michael (II) von Poschinger , 1794-1863 (see below), who took over Theresienthal, and it remained in family ownership until the death of the last Poschinger from the Theresienthal line in 1977. (The first glass foundry bought by the Poschinger family dates all the way back to 1568, and fifteen generations of sons have run the business since then).

Wilhelm Steigerwald (1804 - 1869) was a Czech-German industrialist . In 1832 he was a glass dealer in Haida, northern Bohemia, in the Palais Kinsky, together with Friedrich Egermann. In 1836 he and his brother Franz Steigerwald began the construction of the glass factory Theresienthal in the Bavarian Forest. On 1 July 1837 he joined the company as a co-shareholder and in 1839 settled in Theresienthal, where he acted as technical plant manager and was granted a five-year privilege by the Bavarian government for the gold ruby glass he produced in 1840. In December 1842, after disputes with shareholders, he resigned his directorial post. In 1844 he leased the Schachtenbach glassworks in the Rabenstein glassworks estate and operated it from 23 April 1844. He secured the inheritance rights for the regenhütte,which also belongs to Kiesling's estate, in 1847 after the extinction of the von Kiesling. In 1849, King Max II and his wife visited him, and in 1853 Prince Luitpold, the future Prince Regent. In 1855, Wilhelm Steigerwald was awarded a gold medal in Paris as the only German manufacturer. Schachtenbach had achieved a leading position under him among the glassworks of the Bavarian Forest. On 30 March 1859, the lease agreement with the Spiegelglasfabrik Fischer/Ziegler from Erlangen came to an end and Steigerwald became an heir. At the request of the State Forestry Authority, he conducted negotiations on the relocation of the Schachtenbach hut to Regenhütte and, after the conclusion of the contract on 22 September 1863, began the construction of a new glassworks in Regenhütte, the building of which is still in place today. The glassworks in Schachtenbach was abandoned, the inhabitants almost all moved to Regenhütte. Steigerwald himself also moved to Regenhütte in 1865.

Wilhelm Steigerwald was married to Henriette Reinhold from Zweibrücken, who died three years after him. Their children were daughter Louise (1832-1840), son Oskar (1837-1840), son Wilhelm Jnr. ((17 March 1843-1880) and glass artist Henriette [ later von Poschinger] (1 December 1845-1903).

Henriette Steigerwald  was thus not only the daughter of the estate and glassworks owner Wilhelm Steigerwald and Henrice Reinhold, but also the niece of Franz Steigerwald, founder of Theresienthal glassworks in 1836. In 1863, Henriette Steigerwald married in Zwiesel the son of Johann Michael (II) von Poschinger, royal Bavarian commercial councillor Johann Michael III. Ritter and Edler von Poschinger (1834-1908), landlord and now, following the death of his father in a stagecoach accident, also the owner of the Theresienthal glassworks. Henriette Poschinger  née  Steigerwald was a master student of the famous painter Franz von Lenbach (1836-1904). For several decades she worked in her glassworks as a designer of trophies and römers/roemers/rummers and, In the phase of historicism, she also copied glasses from the Bavarian and Germanic National Museum in order to design modern glasses using old techniques. her two grandchildren, Egon von Poschinger (1894-1977) and Hans von Poschinger (1892-1951),  inherited the artistic talent of their grandmother Henriette and became well-known painters.

Fred.