Topic: pressed tumblers & goblets

[agincourt17]

The design registry summary for RD 278292 gives the registrant's surname as both Downes  AND Downs. There is no detailed description of the design other than giving the Class as Class 3.

For RD 237892 and RD 278292, The National Archives registration details summary give E. H. Down[e]s' address as 13, Smithy Door, Manchester.

Smithy Door was once a narrow lane or passage between Market Place and Deansgate and was named after a blacksmith who carried his own front door to court to prove he was owed money from a debtor in the 1500s. The chap was illiterate but had carved the debt owed into the door, and this was proof enough for the courts. Legend has it that a small statue of the 'smith, William Berry, with his door was kept in the Victoria Hotel (the old Woolpack) on Deansgate, and the story itself, carved into the wood decor of the hotel.

There is an 1825 print of Smithy Door looking south towards the Cathedral, and another print from the same volume but looking in the opposite direction  towards an impressive timber-framed building surmounted with an unusual central-timber framed and tiled 'tower'and  a sign across the front, 'H Willmott'. The same  building is apparently depicted in previous incarnations as the Syddall residence and Old Manor House, and a number of later (1875ish) photos depicts it just before its demolition with a sign running the width of the first floor reading 'DEAKIN'S ENTIRE', the colloquial name for a building that housed the 'Vintner's Arms'. Deakin was Col. James Henry Deakin, politician and brewer,  who owned the Britannia Brewery, Broadie Street, Ardwick, Manchester.. In 1874 he stood for parliament in the constituency of Launceston, in the county of Cornwall, but was unseated just under three months later, owing to corruption, including allowing his tenants to "kill rabbits the eve of the election", causing a by-election; in an act of nepotism he nominated his son, James Henry Deakin [junior] as his replacement and he was duly elected by the forgiving burghers of Launceston, who were presumably too full of rabbit pie to care less. Col Deakin died in 1880, and in 1888, Manchester Brewery Co. Ltd. was registered in January 1888 to acquire the business of Col. James Henry Deakin from his executors.

Fred.

[Paul S.]

Neil  -  thanks - I'll hunt around some more and try to find this one.

Fred  -  thanks as always.       Some amusing and intriguing stories there  -  in fact I had noted on my desk pad, whilst looking in the Register, the address of Smithy Door because it sounded so curious  -  then forgot to mention it in my post …………………   so thanks for doing that for me  -   I  certainly couldn't have added all the other social interest and pix either.

Might you have any pix of these four, in the flesh, to add?

[agincourt17]

Thank you, Paul, for starting this thread, and for all the hard work that you have put in. I must say that I have really enjoyed adding some human and social interest to the thread and hopefully giving another perspective into the glass manufacturing trade of the time.

Sadly, I don't have any photos of actual examples to add here. However, Neil has some addition insights into the Percival, Vickers RD 237550 at
https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/percival-vickers-designs-by-date/percival-vickers-1868-1869
and a good photo of an example of Percival, Vickers RD 240010 at
https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/percival-vickers-designs-by-date/percival-vickers-1870-1872
plus additional info on Molineaux Webb RD 239084 at
https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/molineaux-webb-designs-by-date/molineaux-webb-1870

Fred.

[neilh]

I should mention I've been thinking of writing a set of books on the Manchester glass factories, which would allow me to flesh out some of the characters mentioned on this thread in much greater detail, I'm not really updating my website much these days. We'll see how things go, research is effectively complete from my end.

[Paul S.]

Fortunately, I've now found a picture of 278292 which I can post later -  but more importantly I've also found another dozen or so pix of related goblet/tumbler Registrations which continue this exercise to almost the end of the lozenge period.              Bit embarrassing really, and obviously my pc filing system not what it should be.

Your thoughts on publishing "a set of books' sounds impressive Neil - you may want to wait until I've completed adding pix for the above mentioned additional Registrations, though possibly like me you have already been to TNA and have all you need in the way of Registrant information.              I'll do best to add this final group without too much delay.

So, Fred, you can't quite put the disprin away just yet …...………   and appreciate the links to Neil's web site for data on Percival Vickers and Molineaux Webb - very informative and interesting source of historic details for these manufacturers of pressed glass.

[neilh]

Thanks Paul, I have all the Manchester registrations. As we have found out, the pictures are often just a starting point to wider tableware sets, or further designs which sometimes bear little relation to the registration. Most of my research these days is tracking down unregistered pieces. Unregistered tumblers and goblets are virtually impossible to match to a manufacturer as everyone was doing a set of them in this time period, often identical designs. Even the fancy ones match across glass works in this country and sometimes beyond, to Boston & Sandwich etc.

I don't know if you've seen this page on my website, the bottom bit in blue shows gives details of a court case on tumbler design infringement
https://sites.google.com/site/molwebbhistory/Home/registered-designs/registration-observations

[Paul S.]

:-) - thanks, and seeing that 12 inch thick volume of Design Registrations brings back memories of my trips to Kew and the various incidents along the way.

One of the Design volumes is leather bound (another of the 43/books) which had decayed and acquired what bookbinders call 'red rot'  -  the leather in effect dries to such an extent that it comes away in dust of a reddish colour  -  so what had been a clean short-sleeved white shirt when I started that morning, by lunch time was stained red from leaning over the book  -  I don't think the colour ever really washed out.

I forgot the rule of 'no pencil erasers' one day, and was nearly thrown out when they discovered I was using a pencil with one of those round rubbers pushed into a metal tube on the other end of what was probably a school pencil.
I've been cautioned for ………………….   leaning too far over the books, forgetting to put gloves on, touching the brown sepia coloured C19 photos, being on the wrong desk (they have mega sized tables for the map researchers and smaller ones for those of us who are using just these Registers).           And always need to remember those wedge shaped sponge supports - as showing in your picture.
All these rules and regs. are of course for a very good reason which I do appreciate, and I try to remember, but on rare occasions forget.

Yes, you have shown that story of the litigation re tumbler design infringement before - always good to read again though, and am sure there are others here who will not have seen this previously.

So now we recommence the Registered Designs - here are two more goblets and two more tumblers from 1871 and 1872  -  as always images lack any guide to size  ………...…...…..

one …………………  Registration 255383 dated 06.09.1871  -  Ker, Webb & Co., Mchstr.                             A heavy duty looking goblet

two ………………..  Registration 256264 dated 30.09.1871  -  Percival Vickers & Co., Ltd., Mchstr.              Another design showing the internal   
                         narrowing toward the base, presumably an instance again of a plunger with small diameter front end.

three  …………..    Registration 258445 dated 7.12.1871  -   Percival Vickers & Co., Ltd., Mchstr.              I've assumed this is a tumbler, but could
                         be wrong  -  the lack of height doesn't help  -  perhaps it's a shape for some particular use, but no idea what.
                         Grateful for input on this item as to opinions for use  -  might just be a plain water tumbler of course.

four ……………..    Registration 262405 dated 02.05.1872  -  Percival Vickers & Co,. Ltd., Mchstr.              I suppose you'd call this a goblet, not
                         really sure, but it's a shape that either lasted a very long time  -  think sundae glasses, juke boxes and late C20 lager and lime
                        glasses  - or, a shape that re-appeared in the mid C20 for lager.                   I have some (un-Registered) examples that are
                        very tall.

Percival Vickers obviously very active around this period  -  feel free to post any suitable comments that might add to the above  -  I've given just the bare bones, but some flesh will always increase the interest.

thanks as always to the Directors and Trustees of The National Archives for their permission and help with images and publication on the GMB.

[Paul S.]

four more designs -  from 1872 - 73.

one ………………  Reg. 269194 dated 23.12.1872  -  Percival Vickers, Mchstr.                     
This goblet, together with the next item (tumbler Reg. 269694 also from Percival Vickers), show an identical moulded design feature of massive pillars topped by a deep mitred band encircling the piece, and both have a strong similarity of design to Regs. from Ker, Webb  -  Nos. 230596 and 236002  -  showing in the last page or two, in this thread.                 A similar design of pillars and mitred band is also seen in the Downs Reg. 237893, a couple of pages back.

In view of Neil's link to the litigation episode between Ker, Webb and P.V., it's not difficult to see how tensions between these manufacturers arose - their separate Regs. for these 'pillared' designs could well be seen as too close for comfort perhaps to be simple coincidence, and plagiarism was obviously on someone's mind.     
Unfortunately, it seems history hasn't provided us with the particular Reg. Nos. that gave rise to the 1871 dispute (though possibly Neil may have that information)  -  and since Downs wasn't a manufacturer, then might we infer that one of the two manufacturers in legal dispute, also made the Downs piece?

two ………………. Reg. 269694 dated 15.01.1873  -  Percival Vickers, Mchstr.               
Tumbler with pillars and mitred band.                                           I'd overlooked the fact that Apsley Pellatt was selling heavily pillared decanters c. 1865, so always possible this design feature was enjoying some revival at the time these goblets and tumblers were made - pillars occur on decanters in the C18, and then again in the 1930s.

Reg .............. Reg. 274962 dated 08.08.1873  -  John Derbyshire, Mchstr.
On this date J.D. Registered three new designs  -  274961-63.                It's only 62 and 63 that concern us here, since 274961 was a 'Design for Sugar, Cream and Service in what the factory drawing describes as 'THE PINE APPLE PATTERN' - and attractive it is too.

274962 is described as a 'Design for goblet and Service' - and shows a heavily moulded pattern with appearance of an oval looped design (see below) - people here will hopefully know what others shapes, if any, were produced with this moulded design.                     Have a vague feeling we've had a rummer on the Board in recent days with a very similar pattern, but memory could be failing me.

four ............. Reg. 274963 dated 08.08.1873  -  John Derbyshire, Mchstr.
This is the other J.D. Registration from the 8th August group of three new designs, and again the factory drawing describes this as 'Goblet and Service in Glass', so the suggestion is that other shapes were produced with this design  -  sorry I don't immediately recall what they may be - am sure Fred or Neil will remind us.

If others have more information of interest to add, would be great, thanks:-)
     

[Paul S.]

four more, from 1873, 1874 and 1875  ……………

one  ………………….   Reg. 278292 dated 14th November 1873  -  E. H. Downs, Mchstr.                  An attractive pressed tumbler with stylized fan splits and lenses, though I doubt that we'll ever know the maker.                This is the other Downs Registration referred to by Neil couple of pages back I think.

two  ………………..    Reg. 279535 dated 6th January 1874  -  Lewes Henry Beck of London - another name I know nothing of.     Perhaps others are able to add something on what was probably a wholesaler or retailer.              Looking at other lozenge period designs for tumblers and goblets, it appears very uncommon to find wording such as this on similar glasses - from experience, it's more likely to find text on tankards and Sowerby occasionally added something like 'Peace and Plenty'.

three  ……………..    294653 and 294654 both dated 23rd September 1875.                 Both Registered to Ed. Bolton, Lancs.
                           goblet and tumbler with identical and rather plain pressed oval lenses.

Please add further information if available - thanks.

[agincourt17]

Re: RD 279535 of 6 January 1874:

TNA design registration summary
https://discovery.nationalarchives.gov.uk/results/r?_q=glass+design+279535
gives the registrant as Lewes Henry Beck of 42 Bishopsgate Street , London.

I'm just wondering if there has been a mistranscription of the registrant's name as, in replies #41 and #42 at
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,69201.40.html
the registrants of goblet RD 204182, were Michael & Lewis Beck of 7, Sun Street, Bishopsgate on 28 November 1866 - Parcel 5.

Michael and Lewis Beck traded as Glass and China Merchants (or dealers, depending on the particular census returns).  Michael first appears in the trade in the 1851 census (aged 29) and Lewis (who was 4 years older) seems to join him sometime between 1861 and 1871. Lewis is trading alone by the 1881 census.

There appear to be no other designs registered by Lewes Beck.

The location of Sun Street Passage , Bishopsgate is shown on
https://cartographic.info/uk_street/map.php?id=727981
as being  along the line of the concourse  at the SW corner of  Liverpool Street station, which was opened in about 1890.  Sun Street, Bishopsgate and 42 Bishopsgate [Street] are only about 200 metre apart.

I think it's a reasonable possibility that Lewis Beck and Lewes Beck are, in fact, one and the same person.

Fred.