Topic: Scottish dram glass

[Jeffingtons]

Hi everyone. So I think this is interesting.

Single knop bucket bowl dram glass. Raised cushion in the base of the bowl 10cm tall, 143 grams. Short ring when flicked. Broken, unpolished pontil. Wear on the base commensurate with lots of age. Engraved with a thistle and the message "come fill me up".

What I think is more interesting are the two linked glasses for sale.
https://www.reigal.co.uk/en-GB/glass/a-scottish-regency-cordial-glass/prod_10279?epik=dj0yJnU9NkkwMTluSkFrVzloV1dkcm1mbEMySktEZ3dKNWFiaWEmbj1VZFpNYzBwSWRQYXF2NUhsYmRWRXRBJm09MyZ0PUFBQUFBRjRvMVVr#.XijVUESnw0N
https://www.19cglass.co.uk/product/victorian-scottish-dwarf-ale-glass-of-breweriana-interest/?epik=dj0yJnU9bExYd09xWFU2OVRQeG0xR1RuRHRPQjVhVGhYZ3UzUlombj1LWVl5eHE4M25NSWpLQ0pzV2sxblpRJm09MyZ0PUFBQUFBRjRvMVlr


The first surely must be made by the same maker. The second, I think must have the same engraver as the lettering is to my eyes by the same hand as mine. If I'm right I guess one of them is wrong on their dating.

[Jeffingtons]

Here's the thistle.

PS I did investigate Disher's brewery and they launched a new ale in 1821 so the brewery operating dates work for both attributions.

[Paul S.]

Hi  -  would agree with you that similarity of your bowl/stem, compared with the same features on the 'Scottish Regency Cordial Glass'  is very obvious.                Unfortunately, the distinct bucket bowl on the two examples here, both in capacity and shape, and as a dram or a cordial, doesn't appear in Bickerton.       The 'Regency' example for sale, is rather vague on date  -  Regency being generally 1790 - 1830 ......    do you agree?
Bucket shaped bowls appeared on genuine long-stemmed cordials for much of the third quarter of the C18, apparently, but bowl capacity was noticeably smaller than the two being discussed here, and this might suggest that the two here are of a later date  -  1830 - 1840 perhaps.           And then again we have the issue that you're suggesting yours is a dram, and the other is being sold as a cordial.             My uneducated suggestion would lean more toward a dram than a cordial.     
I could be wrong, but comparing feet on these two drams looks to suggest that the one for sale has a noticeably flatter foot than yours - what do you think.

Some shapes from around this time, particular pieces for pub/tavern use, do have much similarity in appearance - bit like some of the common shapes for rummers - just a quickly made utility glass, and made to a standard design.                  You could be correct insofar as same maker, but it would be impossible to know, and without genuine proof very wrong to say so.

I hate to be a killjoy, but I think the same reasoning applies to your query regarding your comparison of the engraving on your dram, and the ale, as being from the same hand.              This heavy squared, u/c serrifed-type-face appearance was commonplace for wheel engraving for much of the C19, and whilst I might be wrong, think this explains how two different glasses - separated by perhaps half a century in manufacture (if that is indeed the case)  -  have what appears to be wheel engraving 'by the same individual'.               IMHO the appearance of the engraving 'hand' on your glass and the ale is nothing more than coincidence  -  a commonplace style of engraving used over many years, and doesn't suggest the same engraver or an error in dating.

What I think is striking regarding the appearance of the Scottish dwarf ale, is how the shape would pass perfectly for a champers flute  -  in fact take away the words 'Disher's Ale', and you have a glass that looks more like a flute than an ale glass.                   Most dwarf ales from this period, and either side as well, don't have this drawn stem feature.            But, of course, this one does carry the word ale, so a dwarf ale it has to be

Regret this doesn't really help with dating your glass  - but if you look in Bickerton (do you have the book yet?) you'll see the quandary in trying to match your bowl shape either a dram or cordial pre 1830.    I don't suggest the flat foot is an issue, it's more the bowl that's a problem.

But then what do I know  -  where are all the other drinking glass contributors to the forum.

Peter (oldglassman) do you perhaps have a moment to give this one some thought please, or are both glasses outside your period ?

[Jeffingtons]

Thanks Paul. Not sure whether the glass community views it differently but historically the Regency period was 1811-20. I wouldn't have put my glass before 1820, in fact I was more inclined to place it at least post 1830. And definitely not a cordial. Pretty much every other similar example I've found has been described as a late Georgian dram glass.

Regarding the engraving on the Disher's glass, it's probably difficult to see from my poorly lit photos rather than real life but the engraving isn't just similar, but letter by letter in comparison, they're formed exactly the same way. Like with handwriting, that would be incredibly difficult to mimic.

I have bought Bickerton (last week along with a few others). It's a shame it cuts off at 1825, as it just stops short of my era of interest (i.e. affordability).

I must admit, I thought dwarf ales were much smaller, but then I read somewhere recently that the dwarf references the small stem not the bowl. I have a glass I thought was a dwarf ale. I must post it some time.

Post 1830-1900 everyday drinking glass needs a reference book writing on the subject. Fascinating.

[Paul S.]

yes, I think the dates you mention are academically the period he was Regent before becoming Georg IV  -  it was just that I thought I recalled someone recently suggesting a rather more expanded period for the Regency, but no matter.              I'd make the rather personal guess that pieces with similar bowls are put forward as cordials in view of the bucket shape  -  they're way bigger than bowls you'd see on C18 cordials, but nonetheless bucket in appearance, and since that was a common shape for cordials in the C18, maybe folk make the connection for later pieces with same shape but larger bowls.

good to hear you now have Bickerton - and as mentioned, you've seen the absence of your bowl shape in his book.      Such things are outside Peter's collecting area, so he may well now be able to reply.

I was going to comment earlier on the poor quality of pix  -  both yours and the other bucket example, but didn't.               There must be contrast in the image to allow the glass details to be seen sharply, and not fade with a sort of greyness into the background  -   it's not easy, and it needs some experimenting.              Try a good white light, diffused through something like a translucent white plastic - additionally, the light can be masked by white linen or similar if it needs further damping down.            We need the light and a plain background  -  it takes some fiddling around.
I forget who it was now, but couple of years back someone explained about using an semi-opaque Perspex that could be softened with a heat gun and then bent through ninety degrees.             With a foot print area of say 2 - 3 square feet, the Perspex can then be supported either side (to lift off the table) with your light source under the plastic.              Bending the Perspex to ninety degrees gives you a backdrop of the same material, hopefully without the horizon line showing in the final pix.
Perhaps someone reading this will remember where the post is.

Good little soft back booklet for dwarf ales is Stephen Parry's 'Dwarf Ale Glasses and their Victorian Successors'  -  published by Polyptoton - 1978.         Probably an obscure little thing now and I've just looked on Abe Books and can't see any copies around presently.    Stems seem to vary in length and heights look to be anything from 90 mm to around 175 mm.             They are a good area to collect, but getting more scarce now.

Look forward to seeing your ale some time.