Topic: Mid- to late 19th century engraved table service

[srpp]

Hello

I am looking for help identifying the attached glassware which was once part of a table service that I believe was bought either in Paris between 1860-1880 or in London between 1880 and 1900. It is possible, although less likely, they were bought in New York during the same period.

There are some Baccarat designs in trade catalogues around the turn of the century which have some very similar decanter shapes but I have yet to find anything that closely resembles the 'bucket' design of the glasses and their stems. I have been told this looks like a late 19th century interpretation of a popular late 18th century glass shape.

One gentleman I spoke to was convinced they are James Powell / Whitefriars but I have been through the archives extensively at the Museum of London and not found any close matches.

They are wheel-engraved and very even in terms of shape and form. There are carafes with stoppers, 3 types of glass (e.g. champagne, sherry, port) and finger bowls on plates. We think there were once larger glasses e.g. bordeaux/claret that have been smashed over the years. The lion engraving is a family crest.

If anybody has any ideas, please let me know

Much appreciated
Simon

[Paul S.]

hello Simon  -  regret I can't help off-hand just at the moment  -  let's hope someone is able to offer some useful information for you.

I'm curious about  the lion rampant  -  is this your family crest  and are you able to tell us what it is that the lion's paw is resting on?     
It's quite a coincidence for us to see this mark on the GMB  -  apart from the object in the lion's paw this is virtually identical to a late C19 trade mark used by a glass maker by the name of Henry Greener c. 1880s.

The wheel engraving is high quality, pity you have lost some of the suite  -  would agree these don't automatically suggest Powell, but that's not to say that such a suite might have been made by them  -  it's just that this material doesn't have any similarity with the sort of glass that Powell were making around that time.         Perhaps you should have asked the gentleman why he suggested that name.
Carafes don't have stoppers usually, they are for single servings - I believe at the table, then washed and put ready for the next meal.     Bottles with stoppers are described as decanters, usually.           Are these pieces lead glass do you know  -  not that this information will tell us the maker, or origin.

Fingers crossed someone may have more useful information for you. 

[srpp]

Thanks for the reply Paul.

Interesting to hear about Henry Greener. We don't know much about the crest, but the records we have date to around mid 17th century and describe it as a demi-lion "resting his sinister paw on an arch with columns gules". Unfortunately I don't have much more than that. We have quite a few things with this crest on them.

We think they are lead glass yes - they have a nice ring to them. Maybe if I knew more about the glass composition it could give some clues as to their origins...?

Best
Simon

[Paul S.]

Hi Simon  -  to be honest, knowing that the glass has a lead composition metal, won't help identifying a maker, remotely  -  high quality table glass from c. 1680 to present was/is often made using lead oxide in the batch  -  apparently it makes for a glass more suitable for cutting or wheel engraving, and of a better colour.
Originally, a lead content added to the glass also helped remedy/ameliorate the problem of 'crizzling/crisselling' - a glass disease that can mean the end of the life of the glass - it causes weeping (literally) and fine crazing of the piece.

Assume when you say 'mid 17th century', you're implying c. 1750s etc., rather than the standard interpretation of 'mid 17th century', which academically implies we're speaking c. 1650s  -  which would be way too early for lead glass such as your pieces. and with their style and form of decoration.               We tend to stick to this way of interpreting previous centuries to avoid confusion.

Your earlier thoughts of second half C19 - i.e. c. 1850s is a more realistic suggestion      -     to be honest, I did wonder if the lions paw was resting on a croquet hoop  -  perhaps your family had been league winners and this was incorporated into the heraldic image;-)    Only joking, of course  -  regret I know nothing of 'an arch with columns gules'.

Unfortunately - and clear glass in particular falls foul here  -  pieces that lack backstamps showing a makers trade mark or some other form of trade name etc. can be notoriously difficult or impossible to id.          Some art glass is known to be by a specific maker because of   -  shape, colour, iridescence, style etc., but otherwise we fail often to find the answer your want.
Drinking glasses fall frequently into this group, and both drinking glasses and decanters, particularly pre 1920s  - as you've discovered - are rarely if ever marked.
Neither can we be sure of the origin of your suite - it might have been made in the U.K. but equally it might have started life in the other places you mention, and looking at the glass doesn't help at all, though if pushed I'd like to think it was the U.K.

[srpp]

Thanks for all your thoughts and comments Paul.

I was referring to records I have on the family crest that show it dates to around mid 17th century - i.e. 1650s - not the glasses.

I agree difficult with so little (markings, history etc.) to go off. I will keep looking...

Simon

[Paul S.]

so you did  -  I should read more slowly - apologies Simon.             Unfortunately, it's unlikely we're going to be able to help on this occasion, but wish you luck in your search.