Topic: Possibly Regency wineglass? (Posted for Martyn1)

[Martyn1]

Thanks to everyone who is helping with this one.  I will try and post my other similar glass later on today.  I've found some phone settings that may work. So is the date of c 1820 - 1840 likely?

Edited to add: Thank you Paul
This is the other glass which I think is possibly of a similar date. Does the annulated collar indicate anything?

[Paul S.]

I think c. 1830s is what is presently being assumed  -  could be a tad earlier but equally a bit later  -  always difficult with these sort of things, but the similarity with the cutting on the Brooks tumbler seems a helpful pointer to that sort of date.                If that is correct, then it's a shade earlier than 'early Victorian', and since no one says William IV period (though antique furniture dealers might), suppose you could say very late.
Regency.

Best of luck with up loading from the phone.

[Paul S.]

coming back to the subject of feet and how to define their appearance and as an aid to dating, and speaking here of C19 - early C20 traditional wine glasses whether clear, plain dark Bristol colours, or those of a uranium disposition.

Barrie Skelcher admits to some difficulty when it comes to the various methods of creating wine glass feet  -  and equally difficult from our point of view as to how to determine which is which  -  and their possible dates of manufacture, and in essence he created just three categories  …………..  the hand shaped foot, the blown foot and the molded foot (his books were States creations).
Not easy to precis all that he says on this subject, but here goes ……………...…………..

the hand-shaped foot …...……...…..   after forming the stem, a knob of glass is attached at the terminal end and manipulated by various tools (pucelas plus flat piece of wood) into a circular flattish shape - some excess glass may have been cut away to help form a better shape.
This might be considered the least refined method, and it has a tendency to make for a "squared or thickly rounded edge" and the foot may lack a true circular shape  -  all depends on the skill of the individual worker.
This particular method came to mind after seeing Skelcher's photo of the edge of the foot on the example he used in his book, and the foot showing on the piece here, which also looks to have a very thick chunky edge.                   Presumably feet made by such a method will show substantial striations etc. from being worked by tools.
Either it's me being thick or not reading properly, but not sure quite what date period is being referred to as the hey-day of this method  -  I suspect this is possibly the earliest of the C19 methods, but don't quote me.

]blown foot ………….  Here, Skelcher is helped in his description by the fact that Apsley Pellatt describes this very method of foot manufacture in 1849, where it was used to form the foot on a wine glass   ..........   a gather is blown into a spherical shape, then attached to the lower end of the stem, then opened out with the pucelas.           Skelcher suggests this process can be identified by three characteristics:-

The first is a mark on the flat part of the foot where the opening out process was started, though apparently it's very difficult to locate the mark.

The second is the shape of the edge of the foot itself.              Because the flat is being produced from a curved surface, an element of this curvature is likely to survive this opening out process - consequently the edge will be curved from the top downward to the edge, but the base will be very flat.          So, where you get a flat base meeting a downward curve the edge will tend to be sharp and maximum wear is likely to appear on this extremity  - completely the opposite to the hand made foot.            Skelcher, with the help of the Pellatt reference, appears to be saying that the blown foot occupied the major part of the middle of the C19 at least until the 1870s  -  but like many older trade practices it's known that there's often a major time overlap in methods. 

molded foot   .................  the naming of this method was apparently Skelcher's own terminology, and was formed, again, by squeezing a knob of glass - already on the end of the stem - between two spring loaded pieces of wood which were slightly recessed.          Hajdamach reproduces a patent design by J.H.T. Richardson from 1876, which consists of a base board with a recess to form the foot and a spring loaded top board which is half the width.              Wilkinson shows a similar but slightly different design but with both tools the principle is the same.         
The knob of glass on the end of the stem is first squeezed then the glass rotated to form the circular foot.                This process would leave characteristic tell tales, which in theory should distinguish it from the other two methods.
Although there would be striations on the glass where it had been turned in the wood, these would be smooth, regular and there would be an absence of tool marks  -  plus  -  the edge of the foot will have a different shape, and the point of maximum wear may be set in from the extreme edge  -  this edge should show as a uniformly rounded and symmetrical curve.            As for dating this particular process, Skelcher says  "For the purposes of dating, I assume the molded foot was introduced from 1875" .
It's tempting to think that the majority of Victorian wine glasses we see on the Board are moulded feet, but I'm flying a kite really with that suggestion.

So, that in theory is the nature of the feet of Victorian wine glasses, but of course there's a world of difference between theory and practice  -  and differentiating between them really is not as easy as it sounds.

References ………       
Apsley Pellatt             -  Curiosities of Glass Making         pp. 84-85
Charles Hajdamach     -  British Glass 1800-1914            p. 33
R. Wilkinson              -  The Hallmarks of Antique Glass   p. 23

and of course sincere indebtedness to Barrie Skelcher, without whom virtually none of the above could have been written.

[Martyn1]

Many thanks Paul

Interesting article. I've seen many feet with very sharp edges and rounded sides and others with very rounded edges quite often on what are described as Georgian glasses. There may have been some overlap of methods I suppose.

Do both of these glasses still appear to be c1830 to you?

[Paul S.]

hi - I wasn't using Barrie Skelcher's words to revise any dates that have already been suggested for this piece.              As a date, I thought the 1830s seemed a tad early perhaps for this glass, but we appear to have some degree of corroboration from Ekimp's tumbler which shows almost identical cutting, though again, cutting styles were often long lived.
In the absence of any worthwhile alternative suggestion, we're back to saying it's probably around that period.
We mustn't forget wear - sometimes important and potentially helpful when dating  -  not that I want to go out with a wine glass.

About the only thing you can say re the 1830s is that date wise it's too early for any mechanical press moulded glass.

I think we should be looking to you now for some skilled dating - you must have a few decent glasses by now 

[Martyn1]

Many thanks Paul

I think, as you say, dating these is difficult with regard to accuracy as styles probably continued for a while.  I was watching the film "From Hell" last night.  Set in 1888 there is a glass with very similar cutting.  I suppose that he could have been using a glass from the Regency period but there again the glass that I have could have been made in the 1840s or 1850s?
Glass is very interesting and a challenge I think.

[KevinH]

Set in 1888 there is a glass with very similar cutting.

No guarantee that  props in films are true to the period of the story.

[Martyn1]

Absolutely Kevin totally agree but interesting to see the similar cutting.

[Ekimp]

coming back to the subject of feet and how to define their appearance and as an aid to dating, and speaking here of C19 - early C20 traditional wine glasses whether clear, plain dark Bristol colours, or those of a uranium disposition

Going back to the feet again, thanks for sharing the information Paul, do you know why it is concerning wine glasses in particular? Looks like useful information to identify how a foot was made, I’m going to look through my glasses and see what’s what

I only have Hajdamach from your references so I might be missing something, but reading Hajdamach I’m finding the chronology a bit confusing.

Hajdamach says (page 32) the footboard was a 19c addition that produced a foot “without the striations and ridges of eighteenth century feet produced with the pucellas.” That sentence suggests the use of footboards without need for pucellas came in in the early part of the 19c. Also, on page 34 is a print of 1806 showing the sequence of blowing a goblet, he says in the main text associated with the 1806 print that the foot was formed “using the footboards” (although none are shown in the print). The patented handled and sprung footboard tool shown on page 33 that you mention, Hajdamach says was “to allow greater control” - I read that as an improved tool for a pre existing technique? Although the improved device was patented in 1876, he doesn’t seem to suggest that is when they invented the process of using footboards to shape feet.

On pages 34/35, Hajdamach talks about blown feet and how a folded foot is made from a blown foot. So the blown foot would have been used extensively at least in the mid 18c (when making folded feet), and one would assume, could have been used at any time since?

Maybe I’m not understanding something, but from Hajdamach I would take the chronology to be:
Hand-shaped foot formed by squeezing with pucellas any time since 18c.
Blown foot any time since 18c.
Moulded foot, formed by foot boards anytime from early 19c but with improved quality from around 1870.

I assume the technique used might have depended on the intended price point and fineness of the finished glass?

[Martyn1]

Good morning.

That's interesting.  Does anyone have pictures showing marks left by foot boards? There was a glass in Scottish Antiques  a while back showing a late 19th century copy of a Georgian glass that was said to be a copy because of these marks.  I could not see anything obvious on the pictures.  But then I don't know what I'm looking for.  That suggests that foot boards came in late 19th