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Author Topic: pictures of "special" punties  (Read 1716 times)

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Offline kerstinfroberg

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pictures of "special" punties
« on: May 18, 2020, 11:50:46 AM »
I know I have seen some, on the web, possibly from some museum in the UK but I can't find them again.

What I am seeking are special punties used for pressed glass - there were ovals, circles and 3-pronged (for 3-footed bowls), maybe more.
I am re-writing the pages on pressing (https://bergdala-glastekniska-museum.se/eng-press-general.html and following): of course those pages should be mostly on Swedish traditions, but I have learnt so much about "foreign" pressing traditions in the last weeks that I feel the need of adding some of it to my fellow Swedes...

So: should anyone know the pictures I am seeking, please help!

Kerstin in Sweden

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Offline MHT

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Re: pictures of "special" punties
« Reply #1 on: May 19, 2020, 08:23:19 PM »
Hi Kerstin

I think the 'special puntie' you are looking for is called a 'gadget' in the UK.
Rather than 'sticking' the article to a punty rod for final fire polishing, the item is held by a rod with spring-loaded jaws which grips it when a plunger is operated.
This meant that the item did not need to be broken off of the punty rod after fire polishing, so using a gadget meant there was no 'pontil mark left on the glass.
The gadget was introduced in the 1870's. This is a Sowerby patent for an 'improvement' of a gadget, it gives you the general idea of what it is: https://patents.google.com/patent/US357868
There are a couple of pages and pictures in the book, British Glass 1800-1914 by Charles Hajdamach which describes the process.
Sorry, can't find any pictures on the internet, maybe someone else can help.

Mike
He's not the Messiah, he's a very naughty boy!

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Offline kerstinfroberg

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Re: pictures of "special" punties
« Reply #2 on: May 20, 2020, 10:13:00 AM »
Thank you, Mike - but no.

I read here, https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,579.msg2518.html#msg2518, about special press glass punties, and realized I have seen some such animals in a picture somewhere.

Here is the text about them, copied from the msg above:
"After turning-out one way of holding the article was to stick it up¯ on a punty.  Punties for pressed glass were very different from the pontils of our upmarket blowing cousins.  To make this clear is one reason why I am sticking to the Gateshead pronunciation and what may be for all I know my own spelling of the word punty¯.  All had cast iron heads secured to steel rods and the heads were all machined or ground flat on the surface which was to contact the glass..  The simplest, disc shaped ones came in various diameters up to maybe ten inches - quite heavy.  Odd shaped articles had odd shaped punties for their exclusive use.  For example an oblong-footed article would have an oblong punty while one with three feet might have a punty head shaped like the ace of clubs.  Punty heads were always recessed in the middle so that contact would only be made where intended, for example not to contact the star bottom so common on many articles."

I believe such punties were used here in Sweden too, but have not found any good Swe pictures, but I *think* I have seen a couple somewhere on the 'net.

Kerstin

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: pictures of "special" punties
« Reply #3 on: May 20, 2020, 01:33:29 PM »
I'm sure GMB collectors of pressed glass - including me - are probably very ignorant of what it seems were apparently a variety of end-shapes for pontil rods (the punty is the scar left when the pontil rod is broken away from the glass article).
Others here may know vastly more, but generally pressed glass items rarely show a punty mark/scar  -  which is presumably what Adam's words were describing - where, after pressing, the piece was attached to a pontil iron in order to fire polish the pressed article, and even less do we see pressed items showing a variety of punty scars relative to the shape and size of the finished article.           Such scars are sometimes seen on low grade pressed drinking goblets or similar.                 They are, of course, seen frequently on blown glass  -  where sometimes they remain untouched  -  sometimes they are often removed by grinding/polishing  -  are often obliterated by the cutting of the radial star on larger pieces  -  and seen occasionally covered by a trade mark punty.

Continental glass workers, unlike U.K. counterparts, seem to have favoured hollow pontil rods -  presumably it made for an easier way to break the article from the rod, once polishing or finishing was done  -  but even here I don't know that such situations occurred on pressed glass.

Kerstin - sorry to be negative, but I don't ever recall seeing an article other than your link, discussing different shaped terminals for pontil rods - and/or the corresponding variety of punty scars.

Have to say I'm ignorant of your comments         ...................   "there were ovals, circles and 3-pronged (for 3-footed bowls), maybe more." :)



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Offline Paul S.

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Re: pictures of "special" punties
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2020, 07:49:17 AM »
Kerstin  -  I thought I understood what you were trying to discuss  -  now I'm now so sure - should have looked at your link properly.

The word punties is the correct name for the scar which results when breaking away the pontil rod, but ……………………
is it possible you are in fact referring to 'prunts'  -  these are decorative elements on glass - especially Victorian and later - where a blob of glass is added to give further attractiveness  -  possibly the most commonly seen prunt might be the well known raspberry prunt.
The 'seals' showing on the onion bottles in your link are good examples of early 'prunts' - such seals were embossed with the name or whatever of the bottle or winemaker involved, and sometimes included a date of manufacture.

Just a thought, should the other suggestion be completely wrong :)

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Offline kerstinfroberg

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Re: pictures of "special" punties
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2020, 12:20:20 PM »
Dear Paul,
I apologize for my bad English. I hope you can bear with me when I try again.

On this board there is (was?) a man called Adam Dodds. According to himself he was active in the glass industry for over 20 years, working at Sowerby, Davidson and Jobling. (I believe all three were glassworks, quite well-known, at the north-east of England.)

He wrote several articles (“posts”) about the actual (physical) work on the floor of a glass factory. One of them, titled “Unmelted, melted or double melted?”, describing how the finishing of pressed glass was done at Sowerby in the 1950ies. I linked to the post upthread, here is the link again: https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,579.msg2518.html#msg2518

In that post he describes how newly-pressed articles could get different finishes/finishings. The simplest finishing was fire-polishing, but they could also be manipulated into different shapes, be given handles and so on. The prerequisite for all that was re-heating the glass pieces in what was called a glory hole.
To be able to do that (re-heat) the article had to be held with some kind of tool. He calls this a “punty”. His reason for using this word is, in his own words: “Punties for pressed glass were very different from the pontils of our upmarket blowing cousins.  To make this clear is one reason why I am sticking to the Gateshead pronunciation and what may be for all I know my own spelling of the word punty”

His text continues like this: “All had cast iron heads secured to steel rods and the heads were all machined or ground flat on the surface which was to contact the glass..  The simplest, disc shaped ones came in various diameters up to maybe ten inches - quite heavy.  Odd shaped articles had odd shaped punties for their exclusive use.  For example an oblong-footed article would have an oblong punty while one with three feet might have a punty head shaped like the ace of clubs.  Punty heads were always recessed in the middle so that contact would only be made where intended, for example not to contact the star bottom so common on many articles.”

My understanding of this is that, by using special-shaped punties (or pontils) they avoided making a “normal” pontil-mark that would obscure or destroy “the star bottom so common on many articles” (quote from mr Dodd). Instead the special pontil would only be in contact with the (so common) ring-shaped “foot” (for the lack of a better word) under the bowl, plate… pressed article. (Ring-shaped, here, should not be taken literally: oval plates often had an oval-shaped "foot ring".)
It stands to reason these pontils would have to have different sizes and shapes depending on which article was to be “stuck up”.

I have only found (so far) one photo in the Swedish sort-of-standard database for museums. It can be found at https://digitaltmuseum.se/021026697014/puntel. The photo is not as good as I would like, I can’t determine if it (like its Sowerby cousin) is “recessed in the middle so that contact would only be made where intended” (again quoting mr Dodd).

However, I think that I, some time ago, not really understanding what I saw, saw pictures of “strange” pontils at some web page from a British museum. Unfortunately, I can’t remember which museum – hence my question. (Yesterday I got a tip of a Swedish book (about Gullaskruf) having such a picture. It will take some time before I get my hands on said book – but, after all, the more pictures, the better one can understand.)

I am sorry that this post became so long, but I hope I made myself clear.

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Offline NevB

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Re: pictures of "special" punties
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2020, 01:28:32 PM »
Looking on YouTube under "glassmaking punty" there are some really interesting videos, particularly from the Corning Museum, which are well worth a look.
"I hear you're a racist now father!" Father Ted.

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: pictures of "special" punties
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2020, 01:37:31 PM »
thanks Kerstin                don't apologize in any way for your English, which is exceptionally good  - if I could speak Swedish as well as you speak our language I've be very proud of myself.

Unfortunately, I'm unable to help further  -  I do understand what you mean, but as mentioned before, I don't recall any postings on this Board with details of what obviously was a very particular method, and the special pontil rods you are investigating.      Sorry.
Fingers crossed someone will have information for you, but in view of he silence from others then you may draw a blank. :)

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Offline kerstinfroberg

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Re: pictures of "special" punties
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2020, 03:18:41 PM »
For those of you that are at all interested in pressing glass (the actual process), there is a very intereting video posted on the carnival glass site: https://www.carnivalglassworldwide.com/howard-seufer-presents.html
The very last video on this page shows how many different articles can be made from pieces pressed in just one mould. The mould is bowl-shaped, but by re-heating and manipulating the "bowl" they make many different things: flaring it to plates, giving it a crimped brim, "swaging", adding handles... 

Unfortunately, they do not use pontils/punties at all, only "snappers" (or a gadget, for the Brits).
(I find the gadget idea a bit strange for making "carnival" (iridised) glass, as the gadget is in the way for the iridising spray - it must leave the foot ring without iris?)

The video is all of 16 minutes long, but very educational and well worth seeing to the end. Enjoy!

(I could not find much on pressing (the procedure) on the Corning site, they seem more intereted in blowing.)

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Offline kerstinfroberg

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Re: pictures of "special" punties
« Reply #9 on: May 26, 2020, 07:25:18 AM »
The following picture is from the book Gullaskruf 1927-1952.
It wasn't what I hoped for, but at least you can see several round punties in different sizes (and possibly one oval), there are a couple square (or rectangular). In the lower right-hand corner there is one gadget.


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