Topic: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"

[flying free]

Bohemian glass trade:

THE EXPORTATION OF BOHEMIAN GLASS A HISTORICAL REVIEW
Václav Lukáš

Page 63
'From the 1820s to the middle of the century, sales of Bohemian glass boomed, ... and salesmen expanded foreign markets '.

[Ekimp]

Sorry the book wasn’t more help, disappointing. I’ve heard a whisper that Father Christmas is bringing me the Harrach book that you recommended.

[flying free]

Aah, well, the Davenport book hasn't told me anything at all that I haven't managed to unearth myself to be honest.  But a shame re the bowl.


The Neuwelt book is a gorgeous book. Really fantastic pictures and information.  Mine is well used.

I'm getting the Thomas Webb book and a European Glass book by Olga Drahatova.  I've not seen either and just fancied a bit of a read.

m

[flying free]

One more piece of information.

Firstly, I acknowledge that the authors of the article I have discussed below, Ronald Brown, and the book, Terence A. Lockett and Geoffrey A. Godden, were pulling together all this information (and the book especially acknowledges  most of the research for the Glass chapter as being from Ronald Brown) in a time when this was not available online.  It had to be searched for and found in archives and dug out.  It's been a much easier task for me to find these articles and info online.


I have the Ronald Brown article written in the Journal of the Glass Association Vol 5 1997.

1) In that article he writes about the service made for the banquet at Guildhall.  He says the glass was decorated with the royal cypher.  That isn't what the contemporary articles of the time wrote.  They wrote it was decorated with the Royal Arms.


2) He shows in black and white photographs Plate 2, the bowl and the ice plate from the V&A and discusses them as follows:
'The two pieces in question are the ice plate, and the topaz finger bowls (PLATE 2).  The topaz or uranium glass was at that time, the perquisite of Messrs Powell of Whitefriars, and entries in their ledgers show transactions with Davenports during the late 1830s.'

There are a number of points about that short paragraph. 

a) How does he know that topaz glass was always uranium glass?  Topaz is a descriptor of colour or just a factory descriptor of the factory's glass (Harrach was making 'GOLD TOPAZ' remember).  I know that Pellatt ascribed topaz as being made by use of uranium, but I think it's a stretch to add the word uranium into that description of the bowls as they were only described as 'topaz-coloured' in contemporary reports of the time.  Topaz stone can be amber.  Amber glass is not always made of uranium glass.


b) Because it's possible Whitefriars had a recipe for uranium glass in their books around the 1830s, it's a tenuous link to comment on that in conjunction with the bowls in the V&A and the Corning, just on the basis that Whitefriars showed some trade in their ledgers (Source quoted in his article as: 9. Ledgers, J. Powell. Whitefriars Glass. Courtesy of Museum of London) with Davenport isn't it? 
I recognise that Barry Skelcher assessed W/F uranium glass recipe and said the bowls could have come from them, but there doesn't seem to be any evidence they were made in 1837 ... that would be 3 years after they took over the glass house at Whitefriars as novice glassmakers at that time - seemingly/possibly way before Mr Pellatt, in an accomplished glasshouse, made a batch of topaz glass that all had to be destroyed by customers as unfit for purpose and replaced in entirety by Mr Pellatt.



All in all, this is presumably why the Museum of London no longer show the bowl as being by Whitefriars, and that the V&A don't either.  But none of this information points to the bowl being by Davenport Glass either.

[flying free]

I have found today 10Dec21 a different report of the items furnished by Messrs Davenport of Fleet Street.
This was a report in the Birmingham Journal of the 11 November 1837.
Issue no 650, 8 pages
https://www.lastchancetoread.com/docs/1837-11-11-the-birmingham-journal.aspx




1) Of note!  In the entire supply list including the list specifically for Her Majesty’s table:

-   There is no mention of topaz-coloured hock glasses anywhere in the report.
-   There is one mention of ‘two dozen topaz coloured finger glasses.’

In addition:-
-   There is mention for the main entertainment (i.e. not top table) of ‘800 hock ditto, (emerald green)’


This list of the items on Her Majesty's table quoted in the Birmingham Journal reads much more logically than the list I found in the Examiner earlier in this thread.  I queried that list then because some things didn't seem to add up - see post:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,70066.msg391958.html#msg391958








2) Regarding the mention of ‘two dozen topaz coloured finger glasses.’,
 I am sure I’ve read somewhere that finger was a type of design or cutting In my imagination sort of like a description of panel cut or facet cut or petal cut.  I need to try and find where I read that expression.
Basically I was just pondering that a finger glass might not necessarily mean a finger bowl.  Could it simply mean a drinking glass cut with panels ?

ok, I've found my reference to finger cutting or fingered in two place:

a) American glass 1760-1930 The Toledo Museum of Art Vol 2, Kenneth M. Wilson 1994 - page 704 and page 799

'...cut around the base with fingering'
and
'5 grids of eight pointed stars and one area of fingering , with alternating upright and upside-down small fans in between'
and
'Wine Coolers, puntied and fingerd 6 dollars /doz'
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/American_Glass_1760_1930/fATrAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=wine+glass+cut+around+the+base+with+fingering&dq=wine+glass+cut+around+the+base+with+fingering&printsec=frontcover

b) In the Lockett and Godden Davenport book page 287
'As for Glass, it is your own fault if you have no orders from us for Common Cut Goods. - I get button flint wines fluted or fingered weight 3 x at 8/- per doz. 5% discount without any risk of cutting - Best Tumblers 1/2pt fluted or fingered 61/2 at 10/6 - 5% dsict, without any risk. If you liek to get up 5 or 600 dozs of each at these prices we shall sell them ... I believe we want more fingered than fluted.'










3) I've directly cut and pasted the relevant info from the Birmingham Journal and shown below for easy reading. 
In the LCTR link I gave above, it is necessary to scroll down through the journal to about just over half way and the report then appears:

Birmingham Journal of the 11 November 1837.
Issue no 650, 8 pages


‘The china and cut glass were provided by the Messrs. Davenport, of Fleet- street, and it is hut justice to that es- tablishment to state, that although the order was not given till the 13th ult., owing to their incredible exertions it was completed on Monday last, and forwarded to town from their factory in Staffordshire. The dessert plates for the royal table, are of white china, with vine border in gold, and a wreath of oak leaves and acorns in raised mat gold, around the rim. A medallion at the top contains the crown, and another at the bottom the city arms emblazoned in their proper colours. In the centre are the letters V. R., in a handsome cypher, surrounded by an enamelled wreath of flowers, of the most brilliant tints and exquisite workmanship. There were twenty. four of these plates, which we understand are valued at ten guineas each, and they certainly form a hitherto unrivalled specimen of the perfection to which the manufacture has attained in this country.
The decanters, claret jugs, champagne, hock, and other glasses, are all richly cut, and ornamented with a vine border, varied with the rose, thistle, and shamrock, and the royal arms. The supply for Her Majesty's table, consisted of three dozen wine glasses, three dozen small claret glasses, three dozen large ditto, three dozen champagne ditto, two dozen liquer ditto, two dozen goblets, two dozen curafes and tumblers, two dozen hexagon massive decanters, one dozen claret ditto, eighteen wine glass coolers, two dozen topaz coloured finger glesses, two dozen ice plates, and four earthenware antique jugs, with the royal and city arms in relief. For the entertainment generally there were furnished by the Messrs. Davenport 1,600 wine glasses, 800 claret ditto, 800 champagne ditto, 800 hock ditto, ( emerald green) 800 tumblers, 400 deeatiters, 300 water bottles and tumblers, 350 wine glass coolers, & c. The china was a pure white ground to correspond with that provided for Her Majesty's table, the patterns being extremely chaste and void of all ornament, with the excep- tion of a vine border in raised gold surrounding the rims, handles, & c. There were 1,500 large plates, 750 soup ditto, 1,500 pie ditto, 1,200 dishes, ( various sizes) 100 soup tureens, 200 sauce ditto, 50 dessert centre baskets, 200 compotiers, 500 ditto plates, 750 ice ditto, & c.
There was singing and music of course, and…’

[flying free]

1) Point b) above  - should read 'fingered weight 3 oz' not just '3' sorry.

"b) In the Lockett and Godden Davenport book page 287
'As for Glass, it is your own fault if you have no orders from us for Common Cut Goods. - I get button flint wines fluted or fingered weight 3 x at 8/- per doz. 5% discount without any risk of cutting - Best Tumblers 1/2pt fluted or fingered 61/2 at 10/6 - 5% dsict, without any risk. If you liek to get up 5 or 600 dozs of each at these prices we shall sell them ... I believe we want more fingered than fluted.'"


2) More information here on the description of plain and fingered glass (i.e. cut?) and fluted glass (i.e able to be mold blown?)from The Glass Industry in South Boston, Joan E. Kaiser, page 23
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6O4EykAA1YQC&pg=PA50&lpg=PA50&dq=fingered+or+fluted+glass&source=bl&ots=alTi3679y7&sig=ACfU3U18glcsCFzB2qixhFmUYf4it6relQ&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjy_JSV49j0AhVTVsAKHRqJC94Q6AF6BAgUEAM#v=onepage&q=fingered%20or%20fluted%20glass&f=false



3) Also in the link I gave in my post above to
a) American glass 1760-1930 The Toledo Museum of Art Vol 2, Kenneth M. Wilson 1994 - page 704 and page 799

it goes on to say that wine coolers evolved in the late 18th century from finger bowls.  So why would there be finger bowls at a banquet in 1837?

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/American_Glass_1760_1930/fATrAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=wine+glass+cut+around+the+base+with+fingering&dq=wine+glass+cut+around+the+base+with+fingering&printsec=frontcover

4) In fact in the Lockett and Godden book on Davenport glass, they go on to say on page 287:
'... It will not help us to identify Davenport cut glass, fluted or fingered wine glasses, but it is an insight into the nature of their trade, which ...'


Therefore it could make sense that ' two dozen topaz coloured finger glesses' is actually describing some cut drinking glasses couldn't it?



Of course, there is always the possibility that The Birmingham Journal just omitted or mis-typed their list and missed out the other 'topaz' items by mis-typing, however this doesn't detract from the possibility that 'finger glasses' meant cut drinking glasses, not finger bowls:
e.g.
Birmingham Journal list:
'...coolers, two dozen topaz coloured finger glesses, two dozen ice plates, and four earthenware antique jugs,...'
versus Examiner list:
'... coolers, two dozen topaz-coloured hock glasses, six water jugs, one dozen topaz-coloured finger glasses, two dozen ice-plates and four antique earthenware jugs with ...'

[flying free]

'3) Also in the link I gave in my post above to
a) American glass 1760-1930 The Toledo Museum of Art Vol 2, Kenneth M. Wilson 1994 - page 704 and page 799

it goes on to say that wine coolers evolved in the late 18th century from finger bowls.  So why would there be finger bowls at a banquet in 1837?

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/American_Glass_1760_1930/fATrAAAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&bsq=wine+glass+cut+around+the+base+with+fingering&dq=wine+glass+cut+around+the+base+with+fingering&printsec=frontcover'


Therefore it could make sense that ' two dozen topaz coloured finger glesses' is actually describing some cut drinking glasses couldn't it?


Which might explain the description in the Birmingham Journal:  ...

'The decanters, claret jugs, champagne, hock, and other glasses, are all richly cut, and ornamented with a vine border, varied with the rose, thistle, and shamrock, and the royal arms. The supply for Her Majesty's table, consisted of three dozen wine glasses, three dozen small claret glasses, three dozen large ditto, three dozen champagne ditto, two dozen liquer ditto, two dozen goblets, two dozen curafes and tumblers, two dozen hexagon massive decanters, one dozen claret ditto, eighteen wine glass coolers, two dozen topaz coloured finger glesses, two dozen ice plates, and four earthenware antique jugs, with the royal and city arms in relief. For the entertainment generally there were furnished by the Messrs. Davenport 1,600 wine glasses, 800 claret ditto, 800 champagne ditto, 800 hock ditto, ( emerald green) 800 tumblers, 400 deeatiters, 300 water bottles and tumblers,350 wine glass coolers, & c.

And even the lengthier list in the Examiner:

 'The decanters, claret jugs, champazne, hock and other glasses, were all richly cut, and ornamented with a vine border, varied with the rose, thistle, and shamrock, and the Royal arms. The supply for Her Majesty's table consisted of three dozen wine glasses, three dozen small claret glasses, three dozen large ditto, three dozen champagne ditto, two dozen liqueuer ditto, two dozen goblets, two dozen carafes and tumblers, two dozen hexagon massive decanters, one dozen claret ditto, 18 wine-glass coolers, two dozen topaz-coloured hock glasses, six water jugs, one dozen topaz-coloured finger glasses, two dozen ice-plates and four antique earthenware jugs with the Royal and city arms in relief.'
(the rest of the Examiner list for the general entertainment glass is the same as the Birmingham Journal and also only mentions 350 wine glass coolers.)

[flying free]

So what is a finger glass?  what kind of cut might this be? What is being described in the quote below?

 In the Lockett and Godden Davenport book page 287 it says:

'As for Glass, it is your own fault if you have no orders from us for Common Cut Goods. - I get button flint wines fluted or fingered weight 3oz x at 8/- per doz. 5% discount without any risk of cutting - Best Tumblers 1/2pt fluted or fingered 61/2 at 10/6 - 5% disct, without any risk. If you like to get up 5 or 600 dozs of each at these prices we shall sell them .. I believe we want more fingered than fluted'

Is it possible that a 'button flint wine' means a wine glass with a knop in the stem with the knop known as a 'button'?
Is it possible that fluted refers to a type of shape or cutting - so it could be fluted meaning flaring out towards the top or tall and plain?
Is it possible that fingered refers to a type of cutting meaning having shorter than full height 'finger' like panels cut onto the bowl of the glass?


Difficult to know because in my imaginationn, for an example,  I might have thought the top of this decanter would be 'fluted' and the bottom would be 'fingered' if describing a cut - however it is  described as 'slice and flute cut':
https://www.bada.org/object/slice-and-flute-cut-glass-georgian-spirit-decanter-engraved-prince-wales-feathers

[flying free]

Regarding the fact that all reports say the glass for the top table were engraved with the Royal Arms:-

The 'Arms' would look something like the engraving on this Goblet made 150 years prior, they would not just be engraved with a crown and a V/U R underneath:

https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O250189/goblet-and-cover-unknown/

[Ekimp]

The decanters, claret jugs, champagne, hock, and other glasses, are all richly cut, and ornamented with a vine border, varied with the rose, thistle, and shamrock, and the royal arms. The supply for Her Majesty's table, consisted of three dozen wine glasses, three dozen small claret glasses, three dozen large ditto, three dozen champagne ditto, two dozen liquer ditto, two dozen goblets, two dozen curafes and tumblers, two dozen hexagon massive decanters, one dozen claret ditto, eighteen wine glass coolers, two dozen topaz coloured finger glesses, two dozen ice plates, and four earthenware antique jugs, with the royal and city arms in relief. For the entertainment generally there were furnished by the Messrs. Davenport 1,600 wine glasses, 800 claret ditto, 800 champagne ditto, 800 hock ditto, ( emerald green) 800 tumblers, 400 deeatiters, 300 water bottles and tumblers, 350 wine glass coolers, & c. The china was a pure white ground to correspond with that provided for Her Majesty's table, the patterns being extremely chaste and void of all ornament, with the excep- tion of a vine border in raised gold surrounding the rims, handles, & c. There were 1,500 large plates, 750 soup ditto, 1,500 pie ditto, 1,200 dishes, ( various sizes) 100 soup tureens, 200 sauce ditto, 50 dessert centre baskets, 200 compotiers, 500 ditto plates, 750 ice ditto, & c.
There was singing and music of course, and…’

I think they are talking about finger bowls rather than finger cut drinking glasses. They list drinking glasses then go on to list other tableware after, including the finger glasses. The description of the other drinking glasses include what they were for, such as champagne, rather than how they were cut.

Although the wineglass coolers may have evolved from finger bowls, they coexisted rather than supplanted. For example, in the Whitefriars 1931 catalogue they were still suppling finger bowls and coolers at the same time, see page 21 of the 1931 catalogue https://whitefriars-glass.com/whitefriars-cat-1931.php

“...are all richly cut, and ornamented with a vine border, varied with the rose, thistle, and shamrock, and the royal arms”. In addition to your point about the cipher not being the same as the royal arms, the V&A ice plates also only have the rose decoration. As I said, I don’t think the engraving on those is very good - good enough for the top table? Maybe they were just in a hurry.