Topic: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"

[Ekimp]

I’ve had a look through The Decanter by McConnell but that yellow decanter isn’t in there. There isn’t anything that precise shape either, with the bulge in the neck. The section ‘Cut Glass 1850-1900’ has some similar shapes with shaft and globes, some with applied feet with stubby stems, and very similar stoppers (all in clear glass).

[flying free]

Thank you - it's really helpful to have someone else take a look and I also don't have the Decanter book.

I been thinking about why the engraved design on the bowl is different to the plate.
So I looked for the wreath design around the bowl.



The earliest I can find is that it was designed in 1887 for her golden jubilee. 

It appeared on the reverse of the medals given out to celebrate that:

https://www.wikiwand.com/en/Queen_Victoria_Golden_Jubilee_Medal

'.. The reverse bears the words IN COMMEMORATION OF THE 50TH YEAR OF THE REIGN OF QUEEN VICTORIA · 21 JUNE 1887 within a garland of roses, shamrock and thistles.
The bust of Queen Victoria on obverse was designed by Sir Joseph Edgar Boehm and the reverse wreath designed by Clemens Emptmayer, who was recommended by Boehm. '


There is one in the collection of the National Maritime Museum showing it was used for 1897 diamond jubilee as well - I think that if the recipient had received it in 1887, they then wore it in 1897 and just received a bar stating 1897 to go on the ribbon of the 1887 medal.


So either the garland in that kind of format was a design device already in use but 'adapted' or 'redesigned' for the medal?

Or it was a design device designed for the medal in 1887?  A design which would have then been able to be seen by the public and used by makers of other items .  Before or after the 1887 jubilee? Don't know about when the medal design would have been public. 

Garland design can be seen on this cup for 1887:
https://i.etsystatic.com/8141123/r/il/9c4c64/1410799053/il_1140xN.1410799053_3mou.jpg

Can also be seen on this tankard although this one contains acorns:
http://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/662896

This is a good example of a cup and saucer for the 1887 golden jubilee - the auctioneers mention 'shamrocks for the jubilee'.  I don't know what that refers to:

https://www.ukauctioneers.com/auction_catalogue.cfm?d&itemID=20E9CB0FD7D62AFDD3E5FECEFF580AEAEC2FADC2&auction=21ECCB0AD5&showLots=50&sortBy=lotsort&lotView=list&imagesOnly=N



The garland design in can be seen here again on a mug commemorating her diamond jubilee - this is painted or transfer printed onto a mug:
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/queen-victoria-diamond-jubilee-1410533302

And here
http://www.nationaltrustcollections.org.uk/object/285349

[flying free]

I'm not remotely interested in heraldry or royalty so I really have no idea about these emblems as part of designs.  If anyone has any comments or corrections please do step in.

[flying free]

I wonder if we are looking at a piece of uranium glass made in 1887.

Or a piece made earlier but engraved later in 1887?

[Ekimp]

I'm not remotely interested in heraldry or royalty so I really have no idea about these emblems as part of designs.  If anyone has any comments or corrections please do step in.

I know next to nothing on this but don’t think the design was anything specific to Queen Victoria as the emblems symbolise the 1801 Union don’t they? I’m sure you get engraved Georgian glasses with similar type engraving (Union glasses?)

[flying free]

oh ok thank you.  I wasn't brought up here so have very little idea about the history.   I've just spent ages reading about Queen Vic's children and history having got distracted
I looked up glass under that title and found this:

https://scottishantiques.com/Unionengravedbeaker1830

[Ekimp]

  I can’t remember being taught much history, maybe some of it caught hold

Yes, that’s the sort of glass I was thinking of.

[flying free]

I had a whole theory on this (see below)

However this medal from 1840 put paid to it:

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=715&lot=1801

https://www.numisbids.com/n.php?p=lot&sid=715&lot=1801

And the medal says 'Ever may love shed rosy garlands round' on it. 



I have also found this painting of her in as newly crowned monarch 1837 - where she is wearing a rose garland crown.

https://www.agefotostock.com/age/en/details-photo/queen-victoria-1819-1901-sensitive-portrait-in-profile-from-1837-the-newly-crowned-monarch-wearing-a-garland-of-roses-in-her-hair/MEV-10650277


So it could be possible the plate depicted the garland of roses and came earlier than the bowl maybe? Hence the difference in design and the way the VR is engraved?
Unless they were specifically designed as a set that way, the bowls seem to me to not match the plates in any way, either in glass, design and possibly even in the engraving.

Wreath or garland - I may have not been searching the correct word for the design 







OK, I see what you mean but I qualify that by thinking that is an example of the individual emblems being used in a design.  Not specifically designed to form a garland.  I suppose I'm just wondering if the garland design effect was something specific to her throughout her life using those emblems. Or was it something designed to incorporate those emblems a lot later on in her reign. 

I have found I think, but cannot link to, an example of a garland being used earlier on the frontispiece of a book with hand-tinted drawings entitled Costumes of British Ladies from the time of William the 1st to the reign of Queen Victoria which was made in c.1840:
https://stellabooks.com/books/no-author/costumes-of-british-ladies-from-the-time-of-william-the-1st-to-the-reign-of-queen-victoria/1809112#gallery-2

So it could be that these things are just very rare now hence this being the only earlier example I could find (or my searches are no good which is always possible ). 
However, the garland is a tinted painting in a watercolour effect if you like.  It's not very architectural/graphic in design so not easy to copy if you were going to engrave a design from it on glass for example.  Hence wondering if there were other examples of this garland being used elsewhere I suppose.

The medal designed for the Golden Jubilee 1887, by contrast, would be I think much easier to replicate.  And the way the leaves are depicted is quite similar to the the leaves on the bowl which caught my eye:
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/14/Victoria_Golden_Jubilee_Medal%2C_reverse.jpg

From what I read the medal for the Golden Jubilee was the first instance of a medal being made for her occasions.
I can't think the designer/maker specifically copied it from somewhere else.  But I suppose if a garland was one of the 'decorative designs' used during her reign then it wouldn't be a great leap to design it to fit a medal.

However, I can believe that once the medal was made public it would have been easy to copy for lots of items.  Hence being able to find many items for the diamond jubilee using that design and some for the golden jubilee but nothing earlier if you see what I mean?

[flying free]

I have some kind of information here.
I found a report (probably THE report) about Davenport of Fleet Street supplying the crockery and glass in:

No 1554. The Examiner, Sunday 12 November 1837:
page 729.

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Examiner/zWiNg5Znyt4C?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=guildhall+topaz+glass&pg=PA729&printsec=frontcover


1) It says :
'The china and cut glass were provided by Messrs. Davenport of Fleet Street.'
It says the request was given at the last minute but that due to 'almost incredible exertion it was completed on Monday last and forwarded to town from their factory in Staffordshire'. 

Note - 1. it makes a point of saying the request was given at the last minute.  It does not say they made it all.  It says they 'forwarded' it from their factory in Staffordshire.


2) The article talks about the china and how it was all decorated and then says of the glass:

 'The decanters, claret jugs, champazne, hock and other glasses, were all richly cut, and ornamented with a vine border, varied with the rose, thistle, and shamrock, and the Royal arms. The supply for Her Majesty's table consisted of three dozen wine glasses, three dozen small claret glasses, three dozen large ditto, three dozen champagne ditto, two dozen liqueuer ditto, two dozen goblets, two dozen carafes and tumblers, two dozen hexagon massive decanters, one dozen claret ditto, 18 wine-glass coolers, two dozen topaz-coloured hock glasses, six water jugs, one dozen topaz-coloured finger glasses, two dozen ice-plates and four antique earthenware jugs with the Royal and city arms in relief.' 

Note -  1. The topaz-coloured hock glasses are very definitely listed as hock glasses. I wonder if that 'hock glass' means a 'Römer'?  I think I recall that
               the word 'hock' was used to refer to German wine hence my query over whether this is being used to described a   Römer.  Also they specifically
               talk about glasses and goblets and then 'hock glasses' is listed separately.
               Stephan Buse shows these from Theresienthal dated c.1840.  They are tall examples but there were many in the 1840 catalogue of the
               standard cup shape with roemer stems as well so just showing these as an example:
               http://www.roemer-aus-theresienthal.de/buch4b.html
              Shorter examples here: https://antikes-glas.de/formglas/weinroemer-c-248_255.html

          2. There are also topaz-coloured finger glasses - not finger bowls or wine glass rinsers but 'finger glasses'.

          3. There are two dozen ice plates. They appear to be a listed as a separate item to me without any bowls to go with. Therefore I assume not a 'set'
              with that uranium bowl on top which is what is assumed from the photograph of both items together in the V&A.

list for ease of reading with possibly relevant items to this research bolded:
-three dozen wine glasses,
-three dozen small claret glasses,
-three dozen large ditto,
-three dozen champagne ditto,
-two dozen liqueuer ditto,
-two dozen goblets,
-two dozen carafes and tumblers,
-two dozen hexagon massive decanters,
-one dozen claret ditto,
-18 wine-glass coolers,
-two dozen topaz-coloured hock glasses,
-six water jugs,
-one dozen topaz-coloured finger glasses,
-two dozen ice-plates


3) The article carries on discussing more glass and lists hundreds of items of glass for the guests/rest of the event.I'm not going to type it all up but
    interesting to note that
    - 500 or 800 (difficult to read) emerald green hock glasses were included in the list.

Note -  1.  The description of the glass in the article begins by saying 'The decanters, claret jugs, champazne, hock and other glasses, were all richly cut,
                and ornamented with a vine border, varied with the rose, thistle, and shamrock, and the Royal arms.'
                It only then goes on to discuss the glass for Queen Vic's table and separately afterwards the glass for the masses.  The way it was written
                implies the glass for ALL was richly cut and ornamented, not just that for Queen Vic's table.

           2.  I have seen a report on uranium glass recently, that iirc mentioned that uranium glass was used to create the  emerald green glass.
                see page 400 here:  Mechanics Magazine 1843
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Mechanics_Magazine/L45fAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=bohemian+glass+1830&pg=PA284&printsec=frontcover



4)   This report does not tie in with the information I gave in reply #44 where there was no mention of Davenports but there was mention of Copeland and
      Garrett being suppliers:
     
      'There is a report here from the Guildhall Banquet in 1837 mentioning the suppliers  from page 37 onwards.
       Unfortunately neither Davenport or Longport or Whitefriars or Powell  seem to be mentioned:

       https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=HbdGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA23-
IA2&dq=queen+victoria+city+of+london+9+November1837&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwj7j_yTjbDsAhUSQhUIHdSLCpwQ6AEwAHoECAAQAg#v=onepage&q=glass&f=false


Copeland and Garrett are mentioned:

http://www.thepotteries.org/mark/c/copeland.html

[flying free]

So, in summary:

I think there are many unanswered questions as to where the uranium glass bowl in the V&A originated.

-  Nothing in either report from The Examiner or from the Guildhall that says that James Powell or Davenport's actually made the glass.

-  Nothing in the Guildhall report says Davenport's supplied the glass (or china) , it mentions Copeland and Garrett .

-  Nothing in The Examiner that says Copeland and Garret  supplied the glass (or china), it mentions Davenport .

-  Barrie Skelcher says in his article that he has examined and measured the uranium glass bowl (his picture shows one the same as the one in the V&A
   under Longport Davenport) and it fits within the Whitefriars recipe.

- I think it should be considered that the ice plate and uranium glass bowl in the V&A were not made at the same time, or by the same place, or engraved
  by the same person or were made as a 'set'.

- We do not know whether the 'topaz-glass finger glasses' were uranium glass.

- Do we know that the description 'finger glasses' is correct as a description of what we refer to as finger bowls?

- Therefore we do not know whether the uranium glass bowl in the V&A represents the 'topaz-glass finger glass' listed in the description in The Examiner

- We do not know what is meant in terms of shape, by the description 'hock-glass'

- We do not know whether the emerald green hock-glasses were uranium glass.

- We do not know whether the 'topaz-glass' glasses were uranium glass.

- We do not know that uranium glass was being produced in the UK in 1837.




To me :
- the foot of the bowl looks like a Biedermeier cut I've seen on glass from that period but it's difficult to tell without a base shot.
- the cut on the bowl looks like Regency cut glass. 
- the rim on the bowl looks as though it might be firepolished although it is difficult to tell from the photograph. 
- the engraving on the bowl could have been done by a different 'refiner' to the actual maker of the bowl.
- I cannot place the style of the bowl to any particular country, it seems to incorporate elements that don't point to one particular country of origin.