Topic: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"

[Ekimp]

ref the monogram UR v VR

I think they have just copied the v from a cursive script.

[flying free]

just dashing out but in case I lose it

It could have been taken from something called Round Text hand or Round text alphabet.
https://pennavolans.com/the-family-of-english-round-hands/

[Ekimp]

Yes, if you look at some of the charts used to teach penmanship, where each letter is shown separately, some of the vs look just like the v on the bowl and plate.

For fun, some Czech and German examples (German at the bottom), although 20th century:

https://typomil.com/2007/01/normalizovane-skolni-pismo/

[flying free]

I need to look into it more but in the example page I linked only the 'Round Text Hand' has a CAPITAL V written in the way of the bowl and plate.
The other two don't.  And all the examples I can find (not many admittedly) have her V written/inscribed etc with a pointed base.
It's odd.  There's something odd about it.

[flying free]

A Davenport china plate produced for the banquet 1837 in link below.  They knew how to write a V for the cypher/monogram.  It has a point.

https://www.bonhams.com/auction/22840/lot/124/a-davenport-royal-banqueting-plate-circa-1837/

[flying free]

Yes, if you look at some of the charts used to teach penmanship, where each letter is shown separately, some of the vs look just like the v on the bowl and plate.

For fun, some Czech and German examples (German at the bottom), although 20th century:

https://typomil.com/2007/01/normalizovane-skolni-pismo/

The V on the left of the last examples on your link is very similar, more similar than my Round text alphabet link. Specifically the little loop on the top right of the U/V seen on the bowl:
https://typomil.com/typofilos/wp-content/obrazky/normalizovana-lat-nem3-big.jpg

The bowl:
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O2170/finger-bowl-davenport--co/?carousel-image=2016JR2220

[flying free]

This article  is from:
 Source -
glassmaking-in-London.co.uk Industries
LONDON GLASS CUTTERS & ENGRAVERS c.1793
by Peter Lole (Article from Glass Circle News no. 78. 1999, p. 6)
http://www.glassmaking-in-london.co.uk/industries

It is regarding 1793 and 1794 (so 40 odd years before the bowls were apparently made for the Coronation banquet), and obviously the glass industry must have changed in the next 40 years of course - e.g. see the note regarding the drop in proportion of Excise Duty paid by London as a proportion of the whole English sum 40 years after 1793.  However, it's interesting regarding the number of people listed as glass-engravers as a proportion of the whole (very few) and for the fact that at that time 'London had half the Glass Engravers listed in the whole of England.'


'The most suprising feature was that clearly London in the early 1790s was still by far the most important domestic Glass centre in the country. It had more than twice as many cutters as the rest of England put together, and half the Glass Engravers listed in the whole of England. It had almost a third (19 out of a total of 66) of the Glasshouses and Glass Manufacturers listed, but forty years later the proportion of Excise Duty paid in London had dropped to only 2% of the total English sum of £680,000. (See: C.R.Hajdamach: British Glass 1800-1914 Pp 413-41) But this note is really directed only to Cutting and Engraving.'

It's possible things changed drastically in the intervening 40 years and the number of glass engravers increased but it's quite surprising how few engravers there were listed.

[flying free]

There is no definitive information on page 287 and 288 or in the book, that Davenports made all the glass for the QV banquet at the Guildhall.

The authors do make the question when discussing provenance and other details:
page 291
'With this warning in mind, what glasses can be attributed to Davenport?  One answer is that with absolute certainty only those marked Patent.'


Quotes from page 288:

a) 'As was remarked in Part One, the splendid occasion must surely have given great satisfaction to John Davenport, though alas there is no correspondence to record it.  At the time of the Banquet, the firm was trading in his son's name as William Davenport & Co. There remains a slight element of doubt as to whether all the glass for the Royal Banquet was actually made in Staffordshire.  Ronald Brown has found references to Powells, the Whitefriars Glass Works, supplying Davenports with glass in the period 1835-1837.  It is just possible that through the London showroom some of the many thousands of pieces supplied to the Guildhall were actually made in London.'

The book then goes on to make the following comment:

b) 'Even if this were the case it would not apply to the decorated wares used at the Royal tables.  These, and surely some still exist, would be that truly rare item, a documented example of Davenport glass.


There is one interesting piece of information on page 291:

c) 'Also on the list is the name of  Cyrus Hill who is noted as a glass cutter.  Mr Brown has researched this man, and it appears from the testimony of his descendents that he was 'the chief designer for Davenports in the period 1850-1865'.  Very recently Cyrus Hill's recipe notebook and certain glass and ceramic items have been presented to the Victoria and Albert Museum.  These include prototypes of glassware said to have been designed specially for the state banquet given by Queen Victoria.'







Notes from me:

1) It seems the order to Davenports to supply the china and glass was made on the 13th October for a Banquet on the 9th November.  They supplied (also in the book and according to the Staffordshire Advertiser for 11November 1837) 'by Monday past'.  That implies that at least in the space of a maximum 27 days they supplied many thousands of pieces of china and glass for the banquet. 
but then:
On page 289 the following quote after discussing the 1843 report on Children's Employment to Royal Commissioner Samuel Scriven:
'A fascinating glimpse into the Glass Works and it's organisation.  We know of no other document which gives the precise size of the Works at any period.  It does not seem to be too charitable to suggest that on this evidence Davenports Glass Works was a well-run and orderly medium-sized enterprise'.[/b]

Would a medium sized business be able to make all that  glass in 27 days?  Is it unlikely?



2) Powells Whitefriars took over Whitefriars Glass Works in 1834 and as far as I know were not glassmakers at the time.  Not entirely sure what kind of glass they would be supplying to Davenports in 1835 to 1837 just a few years later if they took over the glassworks untrained?  I suppose it could also include stock already there when they took over?
There is nothing definitive in the book to say they definitely were supplying Davenport



3) re this comment in my  quote a) above:
' ... It is just possible that through the London showroom some of the many thousands of pieces supplied to the Guildhall were actually made in London.'


it is also possible that some of the many thousands of pieces supplied to the Guildhall were actually made in Bohemia or Germany.  We know from Hale Thompson silvered glass that Mr Drayton was importing glass from Germany to silver at that time (link here but there are other links to reports in that thread):
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,65670.msg390015.html#msg390015
So there were many imports coming in.  Therefore it has to be a possibility that London showrooms were selling Bohemian and German glass as well I would think?



4) I'm not entirely sure how this comment in the book can be asserted:

'Even if this were the case it would not apply to the decorated wares used at the Royal tables.  These, and surely ....'

I understand the reasoning behind this thought.  I should think it reasonable that Davenports would like to think Her Maj was drinking from one of their glasses especially if they were going to all the effort of gathering this massive collection of china and glass together. 
However, unless it can be proven they were making topaz-coloured hock glasses and topaz-coloured finger bowls which were according to reports, used for the top table, then I don't know how this assertion can be made?


5) Regarding Cyrus Hill - would  someone noted in the 1851 census as Glass Cutter (also mentioned in that paragraph) have access to recipe books about the batches? 
The book quote doesn't actually say they are batch recipe book, just calls them 'recipe books'.  I was just wondering what they might be. 



6) It also notes in the book of the report from the Staffordshire Advertiser  for 11 November 1837 ':
The decanters, claret jugs, Champagne, Hock, and other glasses, are all richly cut, and ornamented with a vine border, varied with the rose, thistle, and shamrock, and the Royal Arms.'

Once again the question - would an engraved crown with a U R engraved beneath it and the emblem of the Guildhall engraved elsewhere on the bowl, be classed as 'The Royal Arms'?



7) Finally it's interesting that, regarding the banquet, the book notes:
'As was remarked in Part One, the splendid occasion must surely have given great satisfaction to John Davenport, though alas there is no correspondence to record it.'


I think it's reasonable to question:

a) whether those uranium glass finger bowls were in the first instance ever made by Davenport glass at Langport / Longport ?  (I've seen this reported as both spellings)

b) whether they are actually the 'topaz-coloured finger glasses' referred to in the description of the banqueting glass for the top table in 1837 ?

I don't know if I've put this information in the thread already but in addition to the authors of the above book noting:

'7) Finally it's interesting that, regarding the banquet, the book notes:
'As was remarked in Part One, the splendid occasion must surely have given great satisfaction to John Davenport, though alas there is no correspondence to record it.''

... the attached photograph shows the Annual Register of Deaths 1848 of the death of John Davenport.  Much detail in there on the stained glass made by Davenport for Dukes and Marquesses of various houses but no comment at all on Queen Victoria City of London banquet glass:

[flying free]

As per my musing in this quote  - I wonder if these Thomas Hawkes plates were the enamelled glass dessert service referred to:
http://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O4967/plate-thomas-hawkes-co/plate-thomas-hawkes/

The point number 3) above refers to Page 325 here - left hand column last paragraph where the description of the enamelled dessert plates
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Mirror_of_Literature_Amusement_and_I/2m9PAQAAMAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=the+mirror+guildhall+banquet+queen+victoria&pg=PA324-IA2&printsec=frontcover

says they were the property of Messrs.  Hetherington & Co of Regent's Quadrant. 

The description does actually appear to be describing these plates in the V&A :

 item linked shown in the V&A as attributed to Thomas Hawkes
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O4967/plate-thomas-hawkes-co/plate-thomas-hawkes/#object-details



Just revisiting this thread as I've been into the V&A today to see the ice plate and uranium glass finger bowl.  No more information was available on the in-house info computer on the items in the show cases than i could find online.

[flying free]

The Art Journal 1852
See right hand column page 260:

'Those of our readers who are interested in the coloured glass manufacture will be glad to learn that a large sale of Austrian uranium ore is now being negotiated for that government, by Messrs. Fabler & Co, 60, Mark Lane, of whom small samples may be obtained. The ores are now lying at the Imperial Mines of Joachimsta (sic)in Bohemia.  They are arranged in eleven lots, and range from 2 to 7 1/2 percent (my words - difficult to read the 1/2 part) of oxide of uranium.'

This perhaps ties in with:
http://www.jgeosci.org/content/JCGS1997_4__veselovsky3.pdf
Journal of the Czech Geological Society
See Page 130 left hand column.

If uranium ore for coloured glass manufacture was so readily available here before 1852 and even allegedly came from Cornwall (I seriously question this?) then I wonder why this would be so noteworthy in the Art Journal for 1852.

Unless I have misunderstood something fundamental, this is all making Queen Victoria's bowls  of apparently 1837 and apparently made at Davenport pottery and glassworks look like ultra ultra rare pieces ... as they might say on ebay.  Especially given the Mirror report says they, Davenport of Fleet Street, pulled together thousands and thousands of items of china and glass in very few days.

They weren't even suppliers to the Queen.  They supplied a service(early 1830s) for the Coronation of King William but he didn't have a banquet - so I presume the service they supplied was made for the Royal Household? Difficult to find any more information on that other than that he didn't have a banquet and had a very low cost and low key coronation.

Apsley Pellatt's book on glassmaking was published in 1849.

The info and contents of Apsley Pellatt's book might have been widely discussed especially because of the Great Exhibition information and journals, so the knowledge of uranium ore to colour glass might have been more 'public' knowledge because of that book. 
However the Art Journal saw fit to include that curious information in 1852 presumably for some purpose of marketing the colour coming in to the country via Messrs. Fabler & Co.  And I doubt that was so the general public could nip out and buy some. So it was presumably aimed at a reader that was making glass?

There is the minor hiccup of Holyrood glass John Ford making uranium glass items in 1841 of course.  So some uranium colouring  was being obtained from somewhere prior to 1852 and around 1841 it seems.  I cannot believe that was Cornwall though. 
There was also mention of two makers in Birmingham showing  a uranium glass piece at the Birmingham Exhibition in 1849. 
Obviously 1841 and 1849 both fall after 1837 though
.