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Author Topic: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"  (Read 41060 times)

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Offline Ekimp

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Re: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"
« Reply #260 on: December 05, 2024, 10:09:22 PM »
Scaling off the photographs and using the declared object heights, I reckon the crown on the goblet is about twice the size as that on the uranium bowl, so much easier to engrave the detail.
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Re: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"
« Reply #261 on: December 07, 2024, 02:22:07 AM »
It might be, and I think the fact the rim is curved outwards on the bowl must have made it more complicated and difficult to engrave upon because of the angle. However the goblet is  also engraved by someone different I am pretty sure(the crown details are completely different) and it's impeccably engraved by comparison to the crown on the uranium bowl and ice plate.
Also the plate was flat - no difficulty on size or angle on that piece and yet the crown is engraved with the same details as the bowl.
There is a vast difference in quality of the engraving of the crown I think .
Also there is a lovely rose on that goblet in comparison to the flowers on the plate.  It's interesting to compare style.

The more I look at the uranium bowl the more I think it is likely it was produced as a cut piece designed with just the cutting,  and then later engraved with the garland and  later still with the crown and part City arms.

I am no expert but to me the garlands on the bowl look to have been engraved by a good engraver.  The crown and City arms look to have been by someone different. And the fact the arms are incomplete makes me think there wasn't room to add them to an already existing design.



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Re: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"
« Reply #262 on: December 18, 2024, 11:51:46 AM »
the ice plate

There is an article in Pressglas-Korrespondenz regarding Pellatt here:
chrome-extension://efaidnbmnnnibpcajpcglclefindmkaj/https://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2011-4w-joyce-pellatt.pdf

On Seite 140 von 416 it shows a print of a Pellatt Catalogue page taken from Grace Guide which it says is probably from the 1830s.

That catalogue of Pellatt with a number of pages of drawings is shown here on this link:

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Apsley_Pellatt_late_Pellatt_Green_Glass/lYA-AAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=apsley+pellatt+finger+bowl&pg=PA8&printsec=frontcover

The middle drawing of the Ice plate no 41. in that linked catalogue reminds me very much of the design of the ice plate attributed to Davenports by the V&A - albeit without the added engraved crown, cypher and bower:
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O2170/finger-bowl-davenport--co/?carousel-image=2006BE8998

description link to the plate here:
https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O2181/ice-plate-davenport--co/


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Re: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"
« Reply #263 on: December 20, 2024, 10:05:21 PM »
The Chemistry of Pottery etc etc.
The chemistry of the several natural and artificial heterogenous compounds used in manufacturing porcelain, glass and pottery.
- Simeon Shaw, published 1837 , printed London W. Lewis & Sons Finch-Lane.

See pages 503 (Flint glass onwards) - 507



I'm not suggesting the glassmakers of the day turned to Simeon Shaw's book to work out how to produce their own glass, however, this was published in 1837 and there does not seem to me (unless I have misunderstood or misread) to be any mention of uranium in any of the 'recipes' for glass colours.

Remember Queen Victoria's banquet at Guildhall was November 1837.

Uranium did seem to be mentioned in conjunction with enamelling pottery if I've read it correctly.  But there didn't seem to be mention of using it to colour glass.

In the making of 'Topaz' glass it mentions including 'Gold-Colored'.  Referring back up the page to 'Gold-color there is no mention of using uranium to produce it.

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Re: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"
« Reply #265 on: December 30, 2024, 06:41:57 PM »
 For my reference I posted this on the Topaz Canary thread discussion.

my query/musing -  ' I wonder if it was known how to produce uranium glass  in Bohemia prior to 1840  .... but not in England.'

With reference the date Harrach started producing lead glass and also their production of uranium glass:

The Legend of Bohemian Glass, Antonin Langhamer, TIGRIS Czech Republic 2003
 - page 79

re Harrach

'At a Prague Exhibition in 1828 the glassworks boasted the first lead - or "ringing" - crystal in Austria.'

and

'They imitated Egermann's ...., made uranium glass containing some alabaster under the name "Chrysopras" (1831), and later perfected a uranium yellow glass.'

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Re: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"
« Reply #266 on: January 01, 2025, 04:15:20 PM »
So, John Ford at Holyrood Glass works was making uranium glass in 1841. 

His uranium glass is referred to as 'called canary or topaz' in Jill Turnbull's book:
Source:  Jill Turnbull, The Magic and Misery of Glassmaking:  Researching the history of the Scottish Glass Industry
https://booksfromscotland.com/2017/09/magic-misery-glassmaking-scotland/


There were a dozen 'topaz-coloured' finger glasses on the Banquet table.

If the dozen topaz finger glasses  (assuming this means finger bowls) in the list for the banquet were uranium glass they would have needed to have been produced and cut and engraved in 27 days or less, because that is the length of time Davenports were given to produce all the glass and china for the banquet.

Could they have been made at Holyrood Glassworks?  and if so when could they have been made?

1) Could Holyrood Glassworks have made the bowls in the V&A and the Corning in 1837?

- We don't have evidence Holyrood Glassworks was making uranium glass in 1837.  The earliest reference is Leighton's letter in 1839. This is followed up by evidence in Jill Turnbull's book that they were making uranium glass in May 1841.


2) This is a clear cut glass epergne that this information from University of Edinburgh says was made by Holyrood Glass works. 
They say it was made by the Holyrood Flint Glass Company, Edinburgh, between 1840 and 1842, to mark the accession of Queen Victoria.

Artisans and Craft Production in 19th Century Scotland
University of Edinburgh online exhibition about Scottish artisans, their work and working lives, between 1780 and 1914
http://www.artisansinscotland.shca.ed.ac.uk/items/show/9

Shows a Glass Epergne from Holyrood Flint glass co. c.1841. It consisted of 40 separate cut pieces and apparently took two years to make.

Description says:
‘This cut glass epergne (table centrepiece) has 40 separate pieces.  It is about a meter in height and was made by the Holyrood Flint Glass Company, Edinburgh, between 1840 and 1842, to mark the accession of Queen Victoria. …’
‘…This epergne was made for a royal table setting and was used on state occasions at Holyrood Palace in Edinburgh.  It was also displayed at the international exhibition displays that were mounted by the company – as in Edinburgh in 1886….’
‘…This glass epergne represents a spectacular display of craftsmanship and ingenious design, with numerous cut glass elements in the eight separate bowls and on the upper section, which is topped with a glass replica of a crown and a Maltese cross.  Richard Hunter, foreman glasscutter for the Holyrood Glass Company, made and probably also designed the piece, taking two years to complete it and bringing prestige and publicity for his employers in the process


- That seems like  a long time to make a cut glass epergne? 
It was 40 pieces though and by comparison if we assume the uranium cut glass engraved bowls in the V&A are the 'dozen topaz finger glasses' in the description for the banquet, we are only talking about 12 cut and engraved uranium glass bowls v 40 pieces.
However, they would have had to have been made, cut and engraved and delivered in 27 days



3) The uranium bowls are engraved. 

This is a report from 1869 (The Industries of Scotland, David Bremner) that described the engraved glass from Scotland of 1856 as in it's infancy and as 'coarse and inartistic'

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Industries_of_Scotland/fz1VAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=the+industries+of+scotland+manufactures+of+glass&pg=PA376&printsec=frontcover
‘In the modern school of glass-engraving Edinburgh stands in the highest class, and it is exceedingly creditable that that position has been gained after only a few years' exertion. At the Art Exhibition held in Edinburgh in 1856 glass-engraving was in its infancy in Scotland, and the specimens then shown were coarse and inartistic.'

- If the engraving was coarse and inartistic and in it's infancy in Scotland in 1856, then it seems to me  the engraving on the uranium glass bowls in the V&A and the Corning were unlikely to have been made twenty years earlier in 1837 in Scotland. 
The U instead of V is questionable however the rest of the engraving is to my mind very artistic.



4) From further reading it seems Holyrood Glassworks did have a connection with a Bohemian glass engraver called J. H. B. Millar.

Source: The Industries of Scotland 1869
See page 386 and 387 in the link below where it says Mr Millar only worked for Messrs. Millar & Co and for Mr Ford of the Holyrood Glasswork:

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Industries_of_Scotland/fz1VAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=the+industries+of+scotland+manufactures+of+glass&pg=PA376&printsec=frontcover

I can't find the info source reference now, however I think Mr Millar came over c.1850 and started his engraving then (will find source and link later).

5) Millar exhibited at the 1862 International Exhibition (see page 410)  where they were described as exhibiting engraved glass and china:
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Record_of_the_International_Exhibiti/Tx9dAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=great+exhibition+1862+glass&pg=PA402&printsec=frontcover


6) Further in the description of 1869 in Industries of Scotland by David Bremner, Bremner writes this:

https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Industries_of_Scotland/fz1VAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=the+industries+of+scotland+manufactures+of+glass&pg=PA376&printsec=frontcover

‘At the Art Exhibition held in Edinburgh in 1856 glass-engraving was in its infancy in Scotland, and the specimens then shown were coarse and inartistic.

It was not until the firm of Messrs J. Millar & Co., of Edinburgh, turned attention to the matter that a decided. and hopeful start was made. So rapid was the progress, that Messrs Millar were able to show at the Great Exhibition of 1862 a collection of engraved glass which attracted universal attention, and won the favourable notice of art critics. A happy hit was made by the beautiful fern pattern then first produced, and now copied by engravers everywhere. Following up the success thus achieved, the firm have gone on producing novelty after novelty. At the Paris Exhibition they made a magnificent display, and, notwithstanding the severe test of competition with the famous glass-makers of the Continent, held their own in the department of engraved flint-glass. Some of the decanters and wine glasses shown were exquisitely beautiful, and were eagerly bought by art collectors. In order that engraved glass might become popular, it was necessary that it should be cheap as well as beautiful; and the Edinburgh makers were among the first to meet both requirements, the result being that their productions are finding their way to the tables of the middle as well as of the upper classes of society. The nobility are now having their coats of arms engraved on every article of table crystal; and persons who have no heraldic emblems to display are having their glasses inscribed with mono-grams


So could Millar's have engraved the uranium glass bowls in the V&A and the Corning after 1850?

7) Bonhams show a c.1862 goblet with a coin in the stem here, of which they say in their footnotes 'The engraving was probably executed in the glass engraving studio of J.H.B. Millar, which was supplied with blanks by the Holyrood Glassworks of John Ford. Several examples exist in the collection of Huntly House Museum, Edinburgh.'

https://www.bonhams.com/auctions/17241/lot/1410/

Not the greatest photography (click on the image and it will enable you to + to enlarge the detail) to show the design but the style of engraving might have some similarities with the V&A and Corning bowl engraving in the style of the leaves?


Interesting set of samples of glass from John Ford Holyrood Glassworks 1866 here:
Quote from Science Museum Group

'https://collection.sciencemuseumgroup.org.uk/objects/co18828/collection-of-glassware-and-materials-from-john-ford
Made:
1866 in Edinburgh
Collection of glassware and materials from John Ford, Holyrood Flint Glass Works, Edinburgh, 1866, with booklet "Manufacture of Flint Glass" by Pellatt and Co.'


And a post here on social media from Edinburgh Museums showing a tumbler in uranium glass made by Holyrood Flint Glass Works c.1885-1886:
https://x.com/EdinCulture/status/1853770450708423017
Quote post:
'Day 5 #Museum30 - Glow.
Uranium glass made by Holyrood Flint Glassworks, #Edinburgh 1885-1886. Radioactive.'

(Note: To me this is a terrible photo - on black paper,doesn't show the colour of the glass properly, neither does it show the glow under uv)


More information here on Holyrood Flint Glass Works with a picture of the cutting and engraving workshop:
https://www.artisansinscotland.shca.ed.ac.uk/items/show/50

I read somewhere there was a warehouse in Edinburgh and that they stocked parian ware etc.  I wonder if they were importers/merchants as well as glassmakers?

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Offline flying free

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Re: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"
« Reply #267 on: January 01, 2025, 04:25:52 PM »
An interesting bit of information here:

page 65
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/American_Glass/JW9yDwAAQBAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=uranium+glass+1830&pg=PA127&printsec=frontcover
American Glass
The Collections at Yale
John Stuart Gordon
2018.




'In 1839 Thomas Leighton, the chief gaffer at the New England Glass Company, wrote to a colleague in Scotland  enquiring about the "Canary Metal" he had seen there. " You likewise informed me that to make your Canary Metal you used nothing but the Oxid (sic) of Uranium in your Flint Batch. ..."
Source for that is noted in there as '2. Thomas Leighton, in Jane Shadel Spillman, "The Leighton-Ford Correspondence ," Acorn 3 (1992)'

I think the Ford refers to John Ford of the Holyrood Flint Glass Works, Edinburgh, however it is just mentioned that he wrote to 'a colleague' so it might not have been Ford.


Just adding this again to this part of the thread.

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Re: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"
« Reply #268 on: January 06, 2025, 01:45:02 AM »
Could have been a useful mention:

Walter Gandy, The Romance of Glass-making, S.W. Partridge & Co 1898
bottom of page 134 and onto page 135
Under chapter 'Glass in Great Britain'
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_Romance_of_Glass_making/VqwaAAAAYAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=uranium+glass+birmingham+1849&pg=PT4&printsec=frontcover
Quote
"Several names of manufacturers are honourably mentioned in the histories of the art. Messrs. Bacchus and Sons of Birmingham were among the first to revive the Murano twisted and filigree work. The first canary-coloured glass is also said to have been made by them on the discovery of the peculiar colouring properties of uranium'."

He phrases it as ' ... said to have been made by them' so it sounds a bit like hearsay, or something he'd read in a report, definitely not an evidenced piece of information.
His information may have been obtained from the list of the Birmingham exhibition 1849 in the Art Journal perhaps? 
see link here page 294
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/The_art_journal_London/65BCAAAAcAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=messrs.+Bacchus+sons+birmingham+uranium+glass&pg=PA294&printsec=frontcover

However the Art Journal doesn't say 'Bacchus were the first to make canary-coloured glass'.  So I wonder where Gandy got that info from?

 Bacchus were around in the 1830s so that can't preclude them from making a bowl in 1837, however the report in the Art Journal does sound as if this use of uranium was something interesting (new? maybe) to report. The Art Journal also mentioned Rice Harris showing uranium coloured glass.
So if uranium glass had been produced in 1837 in Great Britain would it have been mentioned in that way in a report in 1849. 



'

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Offline cagney

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Re: Info on James Powell Topaz glass - "The Queen Victoria Topaz bowl"
« Reply #269 on: January 11, 2025, 10:26:07 AM »
   Looking at the Apsley Pellat catalog I can see all the design elements of the cutting and the basic shape of the QV bowl.

  I did not realize that I have the 1992, vol. 3 edition of the Acorn. Bought back in the day for the other article [ Sandwich Glass catalog & price list c.1874]. The only other comments directly concerning Canary glass that hasn't been said already is at the end of the 1839 letter to John Ford Leighton states " I do not think I will ever make a pot of it ". Also mentioned is " the glass I seen in your warehouse ". Spillman published only five of the nine letters residing at the Huntly House Museum of Edinburgh. Much more info to be gleaned from these letters not related to this thread.

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