Topic: Frosted decanter.

[Paul S.]

thanks  -  agree it's a very nice piece  -  are you able to add details of the height Cagney? -        I was tempted to suggest blasting after looking at the extremities of the opaqueness where there is a very gritty/grainy appearance, not the smooth finish that I'd have expected acid to produce.            Apparently, the material used to 'blast' glass wasn't always sand, though likely sand was used more than any other medium.            If you look at the acid work of designers such as    Marinot and Daum - it's true the acid leaves an irregular surface, but not a gritty dull matt look seen on many of the pieces in this thread.         However, I may well be completely wrong and you are possibly correct.

[cagney]

Creamer is 12.5 cm to top of handle. One more photo angle.

[Ekimp]

Very, very nice photo's and description. With the contrast of clear glass you really get a feel for the technique. Here are some photo's from an early English creamer probably 1860's.

Hi, thanks and thanks for your nice clear photos of the creamer, been away from the machine so couldn’t reply sooner. In my view, the evidence shown on your creamer perfectly matches the abrasive wheel technique described by Charles Bishop in my link (reply 41).

When you look at the crimped rim, none of the low spots have been frosted so if this was acid or blasting they would’ve needed masking. It looks like there are other low spots on the surface near the crimping that have been unintentionally left clear (or less heavily frosted) as the spinning wire brush hasn’t reached the low points. I don’t think this can be explained for acid frosting or sand blasting.

In the second photograph, that shows the inside of the rim, it looks to me like there is a horizontal orientation of the marks (where the piece is highlighted).

In the area around the lower handle where it transitions from frosted to clear it looks like the frosting feathers out rather than reaching a nice clear boundary if masking was used (as Paul mentions). Some marks in this transition area also look like linear scratches that I can’t see being formed from sandblasting - that I imagine would form craters rather than scratches.

It also looks like the abrasive wheel has touched its side to the scroll/finial at the bottom of the handle. There might be marks on the loop of the handle where the wheel has touched, as it must have been awkward to frost under the loop.

An interesting creamer. I’ve addled a link to your original post for this that you mentioned: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,66313.0.html

[flying free]

See page 33 of this link for some pieces acid-etched by J. and J. Northwood:

https://www.cmog.org/sites/default/files/collections/01/01F59713-B8D1-45A6-9860-897B4DA4F615.pdf


P.s.  I think the epergne shown on page 34 is something we've discussed before and I think it's not 'Stevens and Williams' as noted on that link, but was by Walsh Walsh.  I think.

[Ekimp]

Regarding mechanical abrasion where the glass article is spun in a lathe, and expanding on Cagney’s useful reference in reply 17.

Popular Science 1890 (from USA) page 166 - 167. (Talking about glass globes that I assume are light shades).

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=RCADAAAAMBAJ&pg=PA166&dq=obscured+glass+sand+lathe&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiu1JuM7J31AhWRi1wKHaDpC3MQ6AF6BAgIEAM#v=onepage&q=obscured%20glass%20sand%20lathe&f=false

“...The globes are mounted on a lathe over a sand-box, being fastened between plates of cork in order that they shall not be fractured by the jar. The workmen presses a bundle of soft, annealed iron wire against the surface of the quickly rotating globe, and, almost in less time than it takes one to tell about it, the [obscured] band is completed.

The wires simply determine where the obscuring shall be. The real grinding is done by the sand and water with which the surface of the globe is kept constantly supplied.”

It goes on to say the same technique is used if the whole surface is to be obscured. Note this is in 1890 and so post dates the invention of abrasive (sand) blasting by twenty years - so the technique was not superseded by the invention of sandblasting. Cutting into an obscured surface is also described.


And also:

Report on The Manufacture of Glass (1883 I think)
Section - Flint Glass Cutting, Engraving, and Etching

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=IKs6AQAAMAAJ&pg=PA1089&dq=patent+obscured+glass+sand+lathe&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwicvf-I5531AhVCoVwKHY5KBYoQ6AF6BAgMEAM#v=onepage&q=patent%20obscured%20glass%20sand%20lathe&f=false

“...Ground or obscured glass is made by grinding the surface on a wheel with sand and water. In some works in this country [USA] the article is placed in a lathe, and while it is revolving sand and water is applied by a wire brush.”

[cagney]

  There are a handful of American EAPG patterns that have grinding [ probably by a stone wheel ] on raised portions of the pattern pre-dating sand blast. Pictured is the pattern Roman Key [A.K.A. Frosted Roman Key].

  Another pattern made by Bakewell Pears Co. called Ribbon [A.K.A. Frosted Ribbon] was sandblasted on the vertical raised panels and left clear on the alternating depressed vertical panels. Of special note are the two compotes with figural stems. one in the shape of a dolphin and another with a grecian type woman holding a large jar on her shoulder [A.K.A." Rebecca at the well"]. Both stems and foot are sandblasted along with the raised vertical panels on the bowl. A fairly decent photo of the dolphin compote can be seen at  https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/1870s-eapg-bakewell-pears-frosted-1918262190

[cagney]

  One of the better explanations of the difference between acid frosting and sandblastng. From the book ' Antique Fakes & Reproductions' enlarged and revised c.1950. By Ruth Webb Lee.

  The frosted panels on the old Ribbon pattern was accomplished by sandblasting, a process which antedated the use of acid as a method of applying a frosted finish. "White acid" as the glassmakers termed it, leaves a soft, rose-petal surface while sandblasting leaves the surface smooth but with a firm, coarser feel to it.

[flying free]

Thank you for the detailed descriptions of the methods.

Is that goblet by Bakewell Pears Co.?  It's a great shape.

Is this the dolphin footed bowl?: (not a better pic actually because you can't see the frosted surface that well)
https://www.metmuseum.org/art/collection/search/2226


m

[Ekimp]

  There are a handful of American EAPG patterns that have grinding [ probably by a stone wheel ] on raised portions of the pattern pre-dating sand blast. Pictured is the pattern Roman Key [A.K.A. Frosted Roman Key].

That’s interesting to see, thanks. I should think the glass in your photos was an example that was turned on a lathe whilst the key was roughened, like you say, probably with a wheel. Looking at your closeup, its hard to see how this could have been done by any other method.

On the Bakewell Ribbon compote, they must have had to mask the clear vertical panels before blasting, unless they ground the vertical panels with a broad wheel and just blasted the awkward shape dolphin? Do you think they were definitely talking about sand blasting in the book, not the grinding method? Don’t want to be contrary for the sake of it but the vertical panels seem like a good candidate for mechanical grinding. Looking at the lid of this sugar from the range https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/371047453437?hash=item566426d2fd:g:RDsAAOxySoJTU~WA in the sixth photo it looks like you can see the scuff marks from some sort of wheel. I’ll have to lookout for an example over here and have a close look.

From your quote, the book says “sandblasting, a process which antedated the use of acid as a method of applying a frosted finish”. As I understand it, sandblasting was patented in the USA in 1870 but white acid was developed in the U.K. by Northwood c1867 but earlier on the continent (don’t know about in the USA). So it’s actually acid frosting that antedated sandblasting (if I’ve understood ‘antedated’ correctly ). Maybe when she says sandblasting, she actually meant the grinding method, which preceded both blasting and acid frosting?

I wonder why there is a tide line at the top of the dolphin on the worthpoint one - they have missed the top section of tail.

[cagney]

  This pattern Roman Key seems to be always attributed to one of the eastern glass companies as are the other patterns with the same technique. They are thought to date from the late 1860s and are lead glass. Western glass companies [Pennsylvania, West Virginia, Ohio] being early adapters to the non-lead glass formula for pattern glass at that time. An undated list of glassware from the Cape Cod Glass Co. list eleven patterns of glassware and the different pieces that could be had. One pattern [ Rose Sprig ] could be had "plain' or "roughed". Although undated, a window of time can be given by virtue of the address of their front office they moved to in 1863 and the close of operations in 1869.

Further research on the Ribbon pattern indicates that it is NOT sandblasted. The ribbons are ground. I think the earlier confusion [c. 1950] comes about because the grind is less coarse [ softer?] than earlier   
grinding. The figural bases on the compotes are frosted by acid. This pattern is usually given a date of circa 1870 in most pattern glass books. I can find no evidence for that date. The "Rebecca" compote dates to 1877 at the earliest by virtue of a mention in the Crockery and Glass Journal in February and June of that year. New items offered by Bakewell, Pears & Co." comports....with Rebecca foot".
" rich and ornamental pieces. "Rebecca" who upholds the bowl is frosted". The dolphin  is actually pictured in a undated catalog thought to be c. 1875 at the earliest by virtue of the patented shell bowl attached. It could be had in clear, frosted and opal. Opal being the term used for opaline in 19th c. glassworks [U.S.A.]. The ribbon pattern does not appear in this catalog. A descriptoin of the company's display at the Centennial Exhibition [1876] reports " In the table-ware the first thing to note is a charming shell fruit stand [in crystal]. The bowl is upheld by a dolphin".

The general tableware in this pattern does not support an early date of 1870. The handles on the creamers and pitchers are pressed and such pieces as the cheese dish and water tray are articles that suggest a later date. The celery in the Corning Museum is given a wide date "!870 about- 1882 about"

  I had to dig deep into my personal library and it took some time. Between work and the generalities of life it was a happy slog. The most up to date information comes from the book "ARTISTRY and INNOVATION" in Pittsburgh Glass, 1808-1882.  This book covers the exhibition of Bakewell Glass at the Frick Art & Historical Center in 2005.

A really nice photo of the "Rebecca" compote. https//www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/original-eapg-rebecca-at-the-well-compote-c-1870