Topic: Frosted decanter.

[flying free]

    - There is such a huge amount of information all squished into that translation.  It's amazing.

[flying free]

Ekimp see also From Neuwelt to the Whole World, Jan Mergl - page 140 plate 168 - goblet, engraved in Harrachov, probably the workshop of Franz Zacher.  A partially matte-treated crystal glass.  Dates to 1804-1845.

Certainly seen matt treated glass from the 1820s in Das Bohmische glas.

m

[Ekimp]

Thanks, the effect looks similar to the decanter that started this thread but hard to see from the photo. They don’t seem to differentiate between types of matte treatment though, for example on page 188 plate 224 is an 1885 vase that is also ‘matte treated’, but perhaps by then it was matte treated by acid rather than abrasion.

Just noticed that MacConnell The Decanter page 281 says “The [acid etch] technique was bolstered from 1860 by the invention in France of white acid, a hydrofluoric acid/alkali solution that left a matt-white effect similar to engraving. Pellatt and others exhibited white acid decoration in London in 1862 and Paris in 1867”.

So according to McConnell white acid frosting was invented (first?) in France in 1860 so presumably it was just mechanical abrasion before then. White acid from Pellat isn’t mentioned by Hajdamach or Northwood II that seem to say in the U.K. white acid was invented by John Northwood I in around 1867. Hajdamach also says white acid “was known on the Continent well before the 1867 date of Northwood’s use”. That sounds earlier than McConnell’s 1860.

[flying free]

Farbenglas II shows a matt ground (agatised? -) superb goblet  on page 127 from Neuwelt.  It dates to 1837.  I think the description she gives on page 274 indicates this was mechanical ground (agatised? - ).  It's incredibly smooth and silky in the photograph and looks acid etched but it isn't.  She doesn't mention acid etching at all as far as I can see.  Her description of the surface being ground and the people who did the work is interesting.

m

[Ekimp]

Yes, I’m sure the goblet in the Harrach book has been mechanically ground, especially given what is said in Farbenglas. It’s a shame though that they don’t seem to say anything in the Harrach book to indicate when they might have started to also use acid matting, they just say ‘matte treated’. It would be useful to know when acid matting became available as an option.

For those without the Farbenglas book, page 127 showing the mechanically ground goblet can be seen here:
http://waltraudneuwirth.at/Buecher-Selbstverlag-Html/1993-Farbenglas%201-%20Farbenpaletten.html

[Ekimp]

Hajdamach on Northwood’s work on pages 184/185 says: “The effects produced by Northwood’s [acid etching] machines consisted only of outlines. If the areas inside the figures were to be shaded the glass was passed to the engraving shop. Broad copper wheels were used to matt [or frost] the surface...” [my square brackets]. He used this mechanical frosting over large areas as illustrated by a jug in Plate 166. He goes on to say Northwood then develops an acid etch frosting treatment used in conjunction with resists, but the grinding method was used by them until c1862.

The above from reply 8. The c1862 is a mistake, it should read c1867 (it was the jug show in plate 166 that was dated 1862). Could a mod edit it or add a note please?

[Ekimp]

In reply 43 I showed a photograph comparing the abraded frosting of the decanter that was the original subject of this topic, with a modern Jon Art acid frosted item. The photograph is reproduced below.

I’ve now got a new toy so that I can have a closer look at surfaces. It’s a microscope that is nothing at all fancy or expensive (it’s a bit plasticky) and not designed for photography, so the results aren’t perfect, but not too bad either. The pictures were also clearer before shrinking for the forum.

The Jon Art acid frosting is shown first, at x100 and x175 magnification. The abrasive frosted decanter is shown below that at the same magnifications. The x100 images show an area approximately 1.35mm across and the x175 images show an area approximately 0.75mm across. For reference, the pin in the original photograph is 0.65mm diameter.

I got rid of the original Jon Art piece so the new photograph is a different Jon Art signed piece but frosted in the same way. You can see the quite uniform pits of the acid frosting and also the rougher less even chipped surface that has been abraded.

I have other similar photographs comparing a Richardson abrasion frosted goblet with Northwood white acid frosting. Interestingly, the Northwood white acid finish looks much like the Jon Art frosting, but about twice as fine. I will include those photographs on the topic for the goblet here: https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,70755.msg402733.html#msg402733

[Ekimp]

Here are the x175 magnification images from above but with slightly better resolution.

[flying free]

Yes, I’m sure the goblet in the Harrach book has been mechanically ground, especially given what is said in Farbenglas. It’s a shame though that they don’t seem to say anything in the Harrach book to indicate when they might have started to also use acid matting, they just say ‘matte treated’. It would be useful to know when acid matting became available as an option.

For those without the Farbenglas book, page 127 showing the mechanically ground goblet can be seen here:
http://waltraudneuwirth.at/Buecher-Selbstverlag-Html/1993-Farbenglas%201-%20Farbenpaletten.html

I'm think I've read somewhere (a few weeks ago it was mentioned in something I was reading) that Harrach were using acid for designs quite early on in 19th but I can't remember where I read it now.  I was going to look for this post to put the information on here but was distracted and forgot about it. I've not read the entire Harrach book.  Is there no mention in there?

[Ekimp]

Thanks for thinking of it. I’ve not read the whole thing either and can’t remember how hard I looked in the book previously. I haven’t got anything definitely Harrach to have a close look at. I think some of the abrasive frosting is very fine, if they used a fine abrasive particle.