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Author Topic: Frosted decanter.  (Read 5825 times)

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Offline Ekimp

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Re: Frosted decanter.
« Reply #10 on: July 05, 2021, 09:40:53 PM »
You’re welcome :) It’ll be interesting to see what you think on your vase. I’m convinced it was a viable technique used on many cylindrical type objects (vases etc) that are symmetrical about the axis, without handles etc in the way.
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Offline cagney

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Re: Frosted decanter.
« Reply #11 on: July 18, 2021, 07:54:15 PM »
  This technique of grinding well documented concerning lamp shades from 1820s 1870s in U.S.A. Occasionally on lamp fonts as well. The term used in early advertisements are "rough" or "roughened". This technique not often seen on tableware in my experience. A similar use of grinding was used as a low cost substitute for engraving usually seen on pressed glass dating c.1860s.

  Pictured is a cut glass compote probably 1860s with ground decoration usually seen on pressed glass of the same period.

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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Frosted decanter.
« Reply #12 on: July 19, 2021, 08:13:09 AM »
Not sure to what extent this 'grinding' - to produce basic and crude decoration - was used in the U.K. in the C19  -  it is used as we know as a preparation in the process of cutting, but I'm struggling to see it as a method used to produce a frosted surface as shown on this decanter  -  for obvious reasons grinding wheels generally are coarse in texture, and if the glass has to be further processed to smooth out those coarse marks then as a process, efficiency would be lost.      Additionally, the need to maintain a perfectly smoothly curved surface - avoiding flats - would be at risk if held up to a grinding wheel.               Prodigious amounts of drinking related wares - in the C19 in the U.K. - were decorated using a copper engraving wheel, and I'd suggest most of the 'fern' (pteridomania) cutting, seen on drinking glasses etc. were so decorated - the final appearance is similar to that shown by Cagney, but the result is much finer.      This multiple repeat 'slightly curved and arching' shape was a staple decorative motif used by the wheel engravers, presumably replicating some sort of floral motif.        Should we dismiss the possibility of the frosting on this piece having been the result of machine acid etching, especially if the area to be treated - as with this example - is geometrically easy to produce, and not some very detailed intricate image?        Might needle work, etched through the resist, produce very fine directional marks?            Acid appears to have been used commonly in the C19, with health hazards ignored, and the benefit of producing very fine results in the way of smoothness etc. would not have been an opportunity they might have ignored.       How was the Greek Key produced here - engraved or acid etched?

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Offline Ekimp

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Re: Frosted decanter.
« Reply #13 on: July 19, 2021, 11:41:03 AM »
Thanks for the replies. That’s interesting about the American “roughened” lamps, presumably they are roughened over a large area like the decanter and not just in detail like on the compote? When you mention the technique of grinding as a low cost substitute for engraving used on the compote, I thought of the similar crude decoration of cloud shapes or oak leaves on some 19th century decanters and glasses such as these: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,54497.0.html

...but I'm struggling to see it as a method used to produce a frosted surface as shown on this decanter  -  for obvious reasons grinding wheels generally are coarse in texture, and if the glass has to be further processed to smooth out those coarse marks then as a process, efficiency would be lost.      Additionally, the need to maintain a perfectly smoothly curved surface - avoiding flats - would be at risk if held up to a grinding wheel.

I don’t think you would use a coarse grit grinding wheel but use the finest grit that was coarse enough to produce the desired effect in one go. In McConnell page 80 where he talks about grinding stoppers and decanter necks in 1675, he talks of various grades of powdered emery being available that was mixed in oil - so the abrasive wasn’t part of the wheel but an applied paste. I understood that cutting with copper wheels was achieved by using various grade grinding pastes as the abrasive.  If the blank was turned in a lathe as I suggest then there wouldn’t be any flats caused by holding the blank up to a grinding wheel.

I found in the Corning Museum of Glass dictionary a short description of ‘lathe cutting’ where a blank is turned in a lathe and a tool fed with abrasive is applied to the blank to ‘polish it, modify the profile, or cut it’:  https://www.cmog.org/glass-dictionary/lathe-cutting

Might needle work, etched through the resist, produce very fine directional marks?
I think this was in connection with the grinding decoration on the compote? I think the marks produced by needle etching would be very obvious. Occasionally you see imitations of Northwood’s work where instead of frosting between the needle etched outline with a grinding wheel or white acid frosting (see reply eight), they have used more needle etching. This stands out like a sore thumb and looks very crude and I don’t think something you could mistake for mechanical grinding or proper acid frosting. I can’t find an example at the moment.

The Greek key on the decanter has been cut with a wheel.
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Offline AdrianW

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Re: Frosted decanter.
« Reply #14 on: July 20, 2021, 12:27:51 AM »
I bought this as I wanted an example of antique acid frosting (and it was very cheap ;) ). I was sure it was going to be acid frosting when looking at it in the shop, but on getting it home and looking through modest magnification, it was apparent that it is another example of mechanical frosting. This has probably been achieved using an abrasive wheel (or possibly a pad) held against the surface while the body was rotated in a lathe of sorts. You can see the striations in the finish from the rotation of the body against an abrasive and also areas where the wheel hasn’t got into the corner at the base - so not sandblasting or acid etching.

I think this method of abrading the surface to create a frosted effect is actually very common (it is in the glass I come across) and maybe on victorian glass it is the norm, rather than the exception.

There is no stopper but there is an etched ‘2’ in the neck. I believe it dates to somewhere in the Victorian period, there is similar Greek key and frosted decoration here: http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,62608.msg351508.html#msg351508 with discussion on dating of Greek key cutting, Paul S. says Greek key suggests 1860s - 1880s.

FWIW I agree with you regarding the technique used - I think the piece was probably turned on a lathe whilst being rubbed with something abrasive.

The texture suggests mechanical abrasion rather than acid. The pattern of the texture suggests either the piece or the abrasive was being rotated.

I haven't found your vase, but there are a number of lamp shades that use a combination of frosted and greek key patterns:
https://www.replacements.com/crystal-ajka-greek-key-10-flower-vase/p/90820871
https://www.antiquelampsupply.com/argand-shade-hand-cut-greek-key-design.html
https://www.bplampsupply.com/product/4263_greek-key-design-gas-shade

None of them are that close, but they are all part frosted with greek key motifs.

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Offline Ekimp

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Re: Frosted decanter.
« Reply #15 on: July 20, 2021, 08:08:10 AM »
Hi, thanks for looking. Yes, I can’t see the marks being made any other way. I’m sure the decanter was spun on a lathe as the marks are parallel around the diameter and as Paul says, if it was just a rotating abrasive held against the decanter, then you would see a different pattern of marks. It’s hard to see how stuff was frosted unless you get a close look at the surface.

The Greek key certainly seems to be a popular motif over many years. :)
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Offline Paul S.

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Re: Frosted decanter.
« Reply #16 on: July 20, 2021, 08:46:07 AM »
agree, probably ever since Lord Elgin relieved them of their Marbles  -  it's plain enough not to appear too OTT yet has that classical connection  -  it appears prolifically on hand cut, acid etched and to some extent on pressed glass  -  mostly as a geometric border.

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Offline cagney

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Re: Frosted decanter.
« Reply #17 on: July 25, 2021, 12:45:48 PM »
One 19th century account of the process involved with grinding on glass for frosted effect. Although it concerns shades/ fonts, I see no reason it could not apply to your decanter as well.

From  THE SCIENTIFIC AMERICAN VOL. VIII, no. 5 [ January 31, 1863 ]
  " Globes for lamps are ground dull on the surface [to tone the light] by being placed on a lathe, and made to revolve while a pad containing sand and water is held against them'

Quoted and footnoted in  OIL LAMPS II by Catherine M.V. Thuro.
She also mentions another source from the 1870s described a brush rather than a pad used with sand.

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Offline Ekimp

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Re: Frosted decanter.
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2021, 02:51:45 PM »
Thanks for the information, I appreciate it :D This has been a pet subject of mine for a while and your references are proof of the method I have been banging on about. I really think this is the usual technique of frosting victorian glass (if it is a suitable shape to be turned).
People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day - Winnie-the-Pooh

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Offline Ekimp

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Re: Frosted decanter.
« Reply #19 on: September 07, 2021, 05:41:29 PM »
I got this good quality shallow bowl in the charity shop last week. It is another one that has mechanical frosting, similar to the decanter. I can’t decide if it was frosted and then cut or frosted after cutting.

You can see the abrasions go around the bowl from where it was spun against an abrasive. You can see areas in the corner of the foot that haven’t been reached by the abrasive tool. In one place at the edge, you can see where the frosting feathers out where it hasn’t quite reached the cut boarder.
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