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Author Topic: 20th century? Georgian style wine glass  (Read 977 times)

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Offline markhig62

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20th century? Georgian style wine glass
« on: December 30, 2021, 09:05:00 AM »
Hi

I recently bought this lovely little glass for a few pounds. I am aware that it is a reproduction but I would be interested to know who may have made it, when it may have been produced and what methods would have been used. Although it may not be visible in the photos, there are some striations in the bowl and foot, the engraving does have some small errors/mistakes and there are a few, very small inclusions. The faceting is very regular and precise (so moulded?) but reasonably 'sharp'. The foot is low and has a depression where a polished pontil would be (moulded?). There is hardly any wear on the foot.
The metal has a very feint greyish tinge. 
Height 13cm  Bowl diameter 4.6cm  Foot diameter  5.8cm
Is this a brand new reproduction? Can such a glass be machine produced? Is the engraving done by hand? Lots of questions - hopefully someone can suggest some answers!

Thanks for looking

Mark

Offline Paul S.

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Re: 20th century? Georgian style wine glass
« Reply #1 on: December 30, 2021, 11:04:11 AM »
assuming this is a reproduction, then it looks to be copying a wine from the late C18, with hexagonal faceted cut stem, and ovoid bowl.       Someone spent time on this, and it's a good example of it's type, but have to say you will never know the maker or even its origin - a completely lost cause to try, and as you suggest, almost certainly a modern copy, of which there are many ;D              Need to be mindful as to the nature of the wheel engraved decoration  -  some motifs i.e. rose and bud or perhaps thistles  -  can indicate particular historic meanings  -  when you say errors/mistakes, can you clarify please?          The wheel engraving indicates the glass was held, by hand, and offered up to a revolving, small copper wheel - with some find abrasive mixture probably added to help the wheel do its work.   
The faceting will have been cut  -  it could be moulded, but if the edges are sharp then almost certainly the facets will be cut.         Use a loupe/lens and assuming it was cut you should see the remains (albeit very faint) of the grinding marks on the facets - the lines left by the grinding wheel will all run in the same direction.
the same applies to the depression under the foot  -  use the loupe and you should see v. faint polishing/grinding marks  -  these depression can of course be mould-formed, and are on some modern glass, but I'd have thought this example would have had the scar ground and polished away.

Glasses like this can't be machine made.           Traditionally, pieces with a bowl, stem and foot are classified as three-part glasses - each part made separately and connected in turn - with the foot attached last. 
I could be wrong, but with these faceted stem glasses, they may be similar in manufacture to drawn stem glasses  -  the metal forming the stem is drawn down from the material forming the bowl thus the stem isn't made separately, but don't quote me on that. ;)

Height wise you're about o.k.  -  nothing wrong with the striations which indicate a hand-made piece  -  but likely this is a copy from somewhere in the C20.      Is there a good lead-glass ring if you flick the bowl  -  probably it will only give a dull response, so not lead-glass.

We do have an expert on C18 wines in the form of Peter (oldglassman) - though not sure if he will see this post.     Fingers crossed, though again we are back to the proverbial issues which mean that viewing via the screen only is less than ideal.   

P.S.    You may find the Mods. chastise you (in a friendly way of course) for posting in British & Irish glass, since there's no evidence to show presently that is the origin of your glass.    In similar situations you are more likely to get a larger audience if you post in 'Glass' and this will be a more correct sub-heading for your unattributed pieces.

P.P.S.     Since it's always helpful to look at what the experts say and write, you might try to source a copies of some auction catalogues.            One that comes to mind and is related to the subject here is a Delomosne & Son catalogue with the title 'English Wine Glasses with Faceted Stems'  -  published 2005 -  needless to say pieces to die for and which the likes of most of us will never even get to see let alone own.   


Offline markhig62

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Re: 20th century? Georgian style wine glass
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2021, 11:20:36 AM »
Another full and helpful reply, Paul - many thanks.
By mistakes in the engraving, I merely meant a few places where it was not quite precise - but these are few and minor.
I agree that I should be able to see remains of the grinding marks, but I can't, not even faintly, which seems odd and which makes me think the glass must, somehow, be moulded. But would there be striations in the foot and bowl if this were the case?
It's definitely made in 2 pieces with the foot attached to the bowl/stem section.
You're right about the ring - rather dull - not likely to be lead glass.

Interesting!

Offline Paul S.

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Re: 20th century? Georgian style wine glass
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2021, 02:32:38 PM »
Traditionally, feet and bowls are formed manually (bowls were blown initially), using tools called foot clappers and a pucelas - apparently used until c. 1830, and superseded by something called 'the woods' - and these plus other tools give the striations and other marks caused by revolving the foot/bowl whilst the gaffer sits in the chair.
On genuinely old drinking glasses a small blip can be seen on the rim of the glass.               This is where the worker - having originally blown the bowl of the glass and which is now oversize and irregular perhaps - needs to remove surplus glass to create the desired capacity of the bowl.     The bowl is brought up to red heat and using scissors the guy cuts round the circumference of the bowl, and the point at which he starts and finishes this job should produce a small blip on the rim  -  if this feature is absent from a glass that is alleged to be Georgian there may be some need for concern.

The above is taken from Wilkinson's 'The Hallmarks Of Antique Glass'  -  should be inexpensive and whilst not perfect goes a long way to helping with some terminology and understanding of how old glass is made.

Probably misled you slightly  -  the reference to the Delomosne catalogue might suggest it was an auction guide, which it isn't   -  it was produced to accompany an expose of these glasses, which seemingly was a niche that needed filling - I think ;D

Surprised you can't find the grinding marks - what sort of lens are you using  -  is it powerful enough? :)

Offline Ekimp

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Re: 20th century? Georgian style wine glass
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2021, 04:31:41 PM »
Hi. It looks like it should be cut doesn’t it ???

I believe another indicator of age (or lack of age) can be the evenness of the facets cut on the stem - if they are all perfect and symmetrical, the same shape and size for a given height around the stem - then that might indicate they were cut by a machine and so more modern. If they are cut by hand then there will likely be a lack of symmetry in places.

Does the foot rim have a grove around it in the middle of the rim, or is that an optical illusion?
People say nothing is impossible, but I do nothing every day - Winnie-the-Pooh

Offline markhig62

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Re: 20th century? Georgian style wine glass
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2021, 04:49:31 PM »
I have a reasonably strong magnifying glass but can see no marks from the cutting. Presumably, even if machine-cut, there would be visible marks? The facets are very regular though, so this might imply some sort of machine manufacture.

Thanks for the suggestions

Mark

 

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