Topic: Ostler(?) Press Moulded Bust of Shakespeare

[mikenott]

Picked up this bust of Shakespeare online recently. On intimal I thought it was a Gillinder bust produced in 1876 but on closer inspection it was the wrong size, shape with design detail differences and it should have had has a moulded inscription. Further digging on pressglas korrespondenz revealed an interesting article on bust produced by the F&C Osler of Birmingham in the mid 19th century (search pressglas korrespondenz shakespear on google) These included Shakespeare, Milton, Peel and Queen Victoria and Prince Albert. My newly acquired bust looks identical to the Shakespeare bust produced by Osler in both the given dimensions, weight and the images shown except that the base of mine has had its base diameter reduced - presumably to remove a chip such as that that exists on the printed images. Coincidence? I had to make some allowances on base diameter and weight for my bust compared to the printed one. There are no marks or inscriptions on the bust I have although they only seem to have been on the larger Albert and Victoria pieces.

What interests me is just how old this bust could be. 1845 to 1851 is the early days of pressed glass and although the bust is solid without any cavity formed by an inner mould it still looks crisp(ish) and good.

Any thoughts or views gratefully received.

Michael

[neilh]

That is a fantastic find. If you've read Siegmar's article you probably know as much as anybody.

[Ekimp]

Hi, out of interest, how has it been frosted? The Victoria and Albert Victoria bust has been ‘given a textured surface by grinding and abrading’.  In the U.K., acid frosting was only available as an option from c.1867 when developed by Northwood. Before that, they had to grind/abrade the surface. Ref Hajdamach page 184.

Victoria and Albert museum Victoria bust: https://collections.vam.ac.uk/item/O2200/queen-victoria-bust-f-c/queen-victoria-bust-f--c/

Here is a link for the pressglas korrespondenz article: https://pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2014-4w-vogt-osler-shakespeare-1851.pdf

[mikenott]

How do you tell the difference? Presumably the V&A busts are frosted all over even if done by grinding/abrading. I will post some macro shots of the surface finish to see if it helps clarify.

Update: Thought I would compare a frosted Derbyshire Greyhound with my bust and the difference is clear. My bust is definitely ground/abraded as it has a very rough surface when compared to the smooth finish of the acid etched greyhound. Will still post images for comparison.

[neilh]

It's an interesting point on abraided versus acid etched. You can see the difference clearly on some Manchester pieces. Molineaux Webb were slightly ahead on acid etched and most of their 1860s Greek Key pieces have a smooth frosted look, whereas the Percival Vickers ones often look more abraided - see included pic.

Is your piece actually pressed from multiple segments or is it a one piece? I didn't think Osler did "pressed glass" as such.

[Ekimp]

That’s interesting. Types of frosting has been a pet subject of mine, this topic is a bit long but goes into the subject: https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,70868.msg397303.html#msg397303

I included a comparison photo in that topic which I’ve added with the text below

“I have a modern (1980s?) Jon Art object that is acid frosted that I was getting ready to post. The photo below shows a closeup of the finish compared to that on the decanter in this topic. The photos are the same scale with a pin shown for comparison. The mechanical abrasion (on the left), I believe leaves a surface that looks like tiny chips, the acid etched finish looks like very fine condensation with more rounded tiny pits. The antique acid frosting may well look different to this though, but I think it should be noticeably different to the mechanical abrasion.”

I should think on your bust, as well as the roughness/scratches ,if abraded there will be small areas that have been missed in the little cavities crevices etc.

[mikenott]

I'm pretty confident it is made from a multiple moveable segment mould, but I am not sure if there was a bottom mould to push the glass into the finer parts of the mould. It does look slightly "soft" in terms of moulding.

As to acid or abrade, I have never really though about it. Intuition says that abrading would be time consuming compared to acid etching, but conversely abrading is much easier if you want to frost an item where you want a "brilliant" effect in the low relief parts  - such as in your PV image which (I think) shows that the item was mounted in a rotary device and abraded causing the circular score marks. Perhaps acid etching was not available in the 1850's? If you want an item wholly frosted an acid dip would be easier and cheaper once the acid was available. For some in between items ........??

Of course, both have health and safety issues that would be much more difficult to manage today than in the late 1800's.

[mikenott]

Ekimp - That's exactly the difference I am seeing on my bust versus the Derbyshire greyhound!

[Ekimp]

It’s a case of acid frosting not being available as an option in the U.K. before a certain date. Thought that date was c.1867 when the process was developed by Northwood. It would be interesting to know if this was definitely predated by Molineaux Webb. It  can be very difficult to tell the difference between acid and abrasive frosting as the abrasive scratches aren’t always obvious and they can have a very smooth texture. I think it depends on the coarseness of the abrasive and the clues can be quite subtle.

In the topic I linked to, there is discussion on a Bakewell Ribbon compote (from reply 55)  that turned out to use both acid frosting and abrasive frosting on the same item - so even when acid frosting was available, abrasion could still be the more cost effective option, depending on application.

I agree regarding turning of neilh’s piece.

Might your bust be cast?

[neilh]

We are in danger of hijacking the thread here on frosting techniques. I had been a bit lazy relying on the books which call Molineaux Webb as being known for their acid etched frosting. Maybe earlier acid pieces have a different look, I can't find any Victorian pieces in my collection that look like the one you showed on the right with the pin.
Included here are closeups of a MW frosted basin 1865 and a MW frosted butter 1880, there appears to be little difference.

Have to agree I don't think Osler's piece is pressed in the usual sense... no evidence they did pressed glass. They were a higher end manufacturer.