Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Bohemia, Czechoslovakia, Czech Republic, Austria => Topic started by: antonizz on February 21, 2019, 08:36:52 PM
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Hi everybody,
I've just received my latest purchase, and it's quite stunning actually.
It's an perfume bottle with cap.
Albaster glass and opaling glass.
Opaque glass, with opalescent effect. (which can only be spotted in 1 place, because the rest of the glass is quite thick.)
Beaitfully hand cut. Overlay/Cameo.
I beileve this was made in Bohemia, approximately 1820-1840.
But the big question is.. by who?
I hope anybody here recognizes the style.
It could be Annathal, but that's just a wild guess.
Thank you very much in advance!
Kind regards,
R. Antonis
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More pics..
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Forgot to mention: I believe it's made for the Islamic market.
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Thank you for sharing your lovely pictures. It's a gorgeous piece.
Have you managed to acquire any of the books yet?
I have little time at the moment but when I get a moment I'll have a look through my books and see if anything matches or is a good reference.
m
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Would agree most likely Bohemian. Date wise it is possible it might be closer to c.1840-1845 based on a becher in the book Das Bohmische Glas Band II page 163 plate II.240.
The becher appears to be similar colourway blue over white. It also has similarities in the cutting with square ish panels and the diagonal cutting around although the diagonal cutting was I think in fashion at the time and can be seen on pieces from other makers as well - for example a Deckelpokal from Neuwelt on page 88. Another consideration is that the blue over white overlay and the diagonal cutting can also be seen on pieces from Adolfhutte bei Winterberg from that time.
The becher on page 163 also has a very similar gilded random meandering vine leaf pattern on it.
It is attributed as 'Vermutlich Annathal bei Schuttenhofen c. 1840-1845'.
It would be nice to try and match the stopper which is unusual.
Also is it possible to get a photograph of the bottle without the lid, with a light shone behind it. I'd like to see how transparent the alabasterglas is. I presume it does not glow red at all with a strong sunlight shining through it for example? Your photography of your piece makes it look very opaque. I suspect that is just the way it is photographed and perhaps it is less opaque in real life?
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Hi,
Thank you very much for your reply!
I will make better pictures this week, but it ìs thick and opaque.
There's only a small spot in the bottom where the opalescent effect is visible.
BUT.... just 2 minutes ago I have spotted the exact same bottle, only with another cap.
(And I'm pretty sure my cap is original)
If you are interested in seeing it:
Go to the passau Museum Website.
(https://www.glasmuseum.de/1/glassammlung/panoramen/)
-Then click to visit the Biedermeier Hall.
-From where the camera starts, it's in the 7th showcase, if you move to the right.
-I'm pretty excited by the way, since I have been searching for months, and by some kind of intuition
had the urge to visit the Panorama on their website.
Perhaps I should thank you ;)
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1) Yes I see it :)
Well done for spotting it.
Very similar but difficult to say identical because my screen and their photography doesn't allow to see it clearly but the bottle does look to be very similar. Your stopsel is I would think the correct one for your bottle. Their's appears to be plain white and a plain stopper.
Would be nice to find a book reference to that piece. I will have another look at other books if I have time today.
2) That type of diagonal cutting is described as 'turban cut' - I couldn't remember the phrase earlier.
3) This piece has some similarity with yours in the type of glass used to make it. Glaskilian describes it as 'milchglas'. It is dated c.1840. I thought it an interesting comparison:
https://www.glaskilian.de/Biedermeier_UEberfang_Flakon_e.640+B6YmFja1BJRD02NDAmTD0xLiZwcm9kdWN0SUQ9MTU2NjImcGlkX3Byb2R1Y3Q9NjQwJmRldGFpbD0_.0.html
I have one piece dating from that period which is alabasterglas from Annathal- it looks blue over white and can look quite opaque in photography (sort of could look like more opaque 'milchglas') but in my hand it is much more transparent really and a different kind of glass. Very difficult to explain but there is a difference between what I think of as 'milchglas' and 'alabasterglas', and then also a difference between 'alabasterglas' and 'opaline glass which has been opacified with something which means when it is held up to the light it glows fiery or bright orangey red'.
If you haven't bought Das Bohmische Glas band II then I think you would find it very interesting. It is much better having books than just using the internet :)
m
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A late response..
I have made some new pictures, which shows that it's very thick, and not translucent.
The link you shared is indeed kind of the same style.
I have seen 2 moser bottles on RubyLane as well, although it's not really coming close.
I have also mailed the Passau Museum, but unfortunately they didn't respond.
And I'm definately thinking about "Das Böhmische Glas" (I-VII)
Thanks for your help!
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[Mod: I have removed one set of 4 photos which were a repeat of the 4 abpve]
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If I was you having seen what you like to buy, I would buy Band II first then maybe Band III (later period about 1850-1880 or something - can't remember).
It is a truly beautiful museum piece and with original stopper as well.
Have a bit of a search on Dr Fischer auctions and see if you can find similar.
I have one piece with stopper in almost perfect enamel condition that dates to about 1825 in a rare type of coloured glass. I will put it on the board one day.
It's quite unusual in my opinion, to find them with the stopper and they will never ever be made again. They are evidence of the early methods of making milchglas or opaque coloured glass where the factories were making their own recipes for coloured glass, and near the beginning of the period where coloured glass was having a renaissance in fashion.
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Yes I will buy the whole I-VII Band this year.
And yes I really love this glass. I also have some good pieces from France, which date back to +/- 1825.
(Restoration period) / Charles X.
Perfume bottles, painted by Jean-Baptiste Desvignes.
And a Baccarat casket, painted by Jean-Francois Robert.
I don't know if those names ring any bells to you.
But you can find more of it online.
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Lovely - I absolutely love early (1820s to 1850) French opaline glass. Extremely gorgeous colours and lovely shapes especially the perfume bottles.
There is a great book, Baguiers et Verres a Boire (Leon Darnis), I would recommend but in French - you will need to translate :) Sorry.
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I'll do it with the pictures haha.
Do you might know of any of useful books or documents which are free to download?
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Good News!!!
I eventually dìd receive a response from the Passau Museum.
It is indeed the exact same bottles, and my cap is the original one.
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Email:
Wie Sie schreiben befindet sich der exakt gleiche Flakon bei uns im Glasmuseum.
Der Stöpsel ist bei Ihnen allerdings original, der unsere nicht.
Wir haben leider auch nicht mehr Informationen zu diesem Flakon, außer der groben Zuordnung in der Vitrine:
Neuwelt in Nordböhmen oder Hoffnungstal in Schlesien, 1830-1850.
Mit freundlichen Grüßen
Glasmuseum Passau
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I'm very glad that they've confirmed it's the same.
Unfortunately they didn't have any other information about it.
Despite from it possibly being made in Neuwelt or Hoffnungsthal.
I only know Neuwelt from the Harrach company.
Not sure how many factories there must have been.
Also, I can't find any other bottle that's even coming close to this style.
It's not just the turban cut. It's the whole shape and design.
I'm very happy with this find!
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I've not translated this so no idea if it has interesting info relevant to your piece but here is some info on Preußler a glassmaking family from Hoffnungstal if I understood it correctly:
https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preu%C3%9Fler_(Glasmacher)
Within the text it does say re one of their glasshutte:
'Eight years before his death, Christian Benjamin Preußler handed over the Karlstaler Hütte to his son-in-law Franz Pohl in 1840, who was married to Amalia Preußler.'
I think Franz Pohl was Josephinenhutte?
But I may be getting confused. I find the history very difficult to follow because the families were linked, the names are remarkably confusing and similar and I forget which year which factories were in practise. I thought Josephinenhutte was later than 1830 but could be wrong.]
Oooh however there is more information here:
https://antikes-glas.de/glas-josephinenhuette-c-8.html
Source: Antikes Neuwirth - quote:
'In 1617, the Schaffgotsch landlords granted permission for the construction and operation of a glassworks to another glassmaking family (Preußler) from Bohemia. The Preußlers operated the hut for over 200 years. In 1841, the landlords Schaffgotsch in the district of Weißbachtal founded a third glassworks, which opened on 7 July 1842 and was called "Josephinenhütte". Their leader was until 1882 Franz Pohl, a son-in-law of the last Preussler. (my bold) The Josephinenhütte developed into the most important industrial enterprise of the place and was until 1923 in the possession of the family Schaffgotsch. In the same year, the merger with the Heckert glassworks in Petersdorf and the Hermsdorf firm Neumann & Staebe took place at the "Josephinenhütte A. G.", which remained in operation until 1945. After the transition to Poland, production in Schreiberhau was continued from 1946, with some of the old workforce continuing to work partly under duress, partly because of material incentives. After a lost trial of Franz Schaffgotsch founded the "New Josephinenhütte" in Schwäbisch Gmünd the company had to change its name to "Huta Szkła Julia" in 1956 [3]. The hut is now closed. Smaller companies in the region continue the glassmaking tradition.'
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See my amended added text above for more information :)
So Passau are suggesting either Neuwelt or Josephinenhutte I think.
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Thank you!
You're obviously way more educated on this stuff.
I hardly know of the "huttes".
In which the region they would be located, and how many factories there were, etc.
Which ones were specialised in what kind of style.
I must say that I haven't ever took the time to educated on that.
I was already proud of learning the difference between the french and bohemian opalines
some 2 years ago.
I ready have to spend (even) more time on this
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Hii,
I have a new update on the bottle, I think.
I'm not sure whether I should create a new topic for this or not.
I have bought another absolutely stunning bohemian bottle (see pictures)
Which probably can be linked to the bottle of the orignal topic.
More information:
Museum Quality piece;
White opaque glass, overlaid with blue alabaster glas.
Original stopper. Both bottle and the stopper are provided
with the same Turban Cut also. 6 studs on the lower part of the bottle.
Enameled. Dates back to 1835.
I saw the studs were namen "Buckelquader" somewhere.
Now the thing is:
I think I have been searchin on Dr.Fisscher, and found a couple of items,
which basically convinced me that it dates back from:
1835. Made by the company "Meyr's Neffe". (Adolfhütte, bei Winterberg)
If I'm right with this, I think (since it's the same style and color and everything)
that I can also attribute my other bottle to Meyr's Neffe.
I would of course like your opinion as well.
I think they're both fascination pieces, in top condition.
Here are some links;
1) SAME CUT IN THE MID-STEM: https://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/254-european-glass-studio-glass-collection-karl-je-liebetrau.html?L=1&kategorie=102&artikel=67507&L=1&cHash=6f964548611
2) SAME STUDS, AlTHOUGH I KNOW THEY ARE MORE COMMON https://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/237-european-glass-studio-glass.html?L=1&kategorie=102&artikel=51221&L=1&cHash=5c3eb726cf
3) SAME STUDS/BUCKELQUADERN https://www.auctions-fischer.de/catalogues/online-catalogues/249-27th-glass-sale-in-zwiesel.html?L=1&kategorie=102&artikel=61481&L=1&cHash=d43d5ca844
4) MEYR'S NEFFE BEAKER https://nl.pinterest.com/pin/490540584393931626/
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More pics
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What a beautiful addition to your collection.....congratulations! It would seem to make sense to develop this thread, rather than start a new one.
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I think Franz Pohl was Josephinenhutte?
He ran both Josephinenhutte AND Karlsthal, cf. S. Żelasko "Grafflich Schaffgotsch'sche Josephinenhutte..." (Passau 2005). Hoffnungsthal was founded by Preussler, Matterne and Preller Jun. All three glassworks - Josephinenhutte (from 1841), Karlsthal (from 1754), and Hoffnungsthal (from 1796) - were in Silesia, specifically the Isergebirge. John Quincy Adams visited Hoffnungsthal in 1800, as well as Neuwelt, making interesting remarks.
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Thank you for clarifying this :) I'm sorry my response in reply #15 was a bit confusing because I was confused. I've only recently been reading about Franz Pohl
on something to do with paperweights and realised about the different factories.
m
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He returned to Silesia in 1837 and married Preussler's only daughter, Amalie, in 1839 (the famous Preussler-Huxt that changed the fashion in the region!), taking over Karlsthal in the same year or in the following one. Josephinenhutte was inaugurated in 1842. If you read the first Act of Gerhart Hauptmann's "And Pippa Dances!", you will see Pohl Junior as Director of the Josephinenhutte visiting the now-defunct Karlsthal - a two-hour horse ride through the snow - to eat trout with potatoes, drink champagne, and see a teenage girl dance, in what is actually the Schneider's Gasthaus, which existed through 1945. Hauptmann first visited the Isergebirge in 1890, and there is a fragment in his memoirs about how Karlsthal, the Gasthaus, and the area inspired him. His biographer writes that he "spent once a night in an old glassworks-inn in the Isergebirge, and what he saw there, inspired the first Act of 'Pippa.'"
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Thank you - quote 'John Quincy Adams visited Hoffnungsthal in 1800, as well as Neuwelt, making interesting remarks.'
I've just looked that up and been reading the report. Fascinating to read a report contemporary to the times. The rivalry between the sides of the mountains is interesting. My knowledge is severely limited really, and made more difficult by trying to understand the geography and place names.
He talks of Warmbrunn - which reminded me of some bechers I have seen with enamelled plaques with that name on (perhaps something sold by Dr Fischer auctions whilst I was looking for bechers with enamelled medallion plaques on them). This seems to be one which has an enamelled picture of Warmbrunn:
https://auctions.schloss-ahlden.de/en/?option=com_bidding&view=commission&layout=details&id=36446
And welcome to the board :)
m
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My knowledge is severely limited really, and made more difficult by trying to understand the geography and place names.
There are many period maps online, for example https://polona.pl/item-view/0a7077af-a0ce-46e8-ba8d-b996ba354635?page=0 (https://polona.pl/item-view/0a7077af-a0ce-46e8-ba8d-b996ba354635?page=0) at polona.pl. With their help, I found the remnants of the Michelsbaude between Karlsthal and Schreiberhau (Szklarska Poręba) back in 2018, starting a historical rollercoaster ride that continues to this day...
There are also at least several accounts from Karlsthal from the late 18th or early 19th by German authors (e.g. Christian Weiss, Johann F. Zollner, or JCF Gutsmuths).
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Thanks - I also have lots of books so there are maps in there etc. which help when trying to place people and objects and look at how close the glass factories were to each other etc.
My bigger problem is watching things like video tours of the Biedermeier period (the glass I love and the period I'm most interested in) and older glass in MUZEUM KARKONOSKIE W JELENIEJ GÓRZE by dr. Stefania Żelasko. I think I've managed to track down an English translation of the information though which has been a huge help.
m
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older glass in MUZEUM KARKONOSKIE W JELENIEJ GÓRZE by Stefanii Żelazko.
m
I have all three Glasmuseum Passau-published books by her, and photos of much of the glass from the Muzeum Karkonoskie, can gladly share.
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(http://)
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Thank you for posting such a clear photograph of the canes :) That's beautiful! Are paperweights your area of interest?
I'm unlikely to find anything like that here in UK but I've been doing so much reading around them I hope I'd recognise one if I did see one!
Which books do you have please? and which would you recommend as the most comprehensive for the period 1800-1850/60?
m
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Which books do you have please? and which would you recommend as the most comprehensive for the period 1800-1850/60?
"Graflich Schaffgotsch'sche Josephinenhutte 1842-1900", "Barock und Rokoko im Hirschberger Tal", "Fritz Heckert 1866-1923".
For paperweights, the book by Marek Kordasiewicz.
My area of interest is the Isergebirge, which means Karlsthal, Hoffnungsthal, Josephinenhutte, and Neuwelt/Novy Svet.
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Thank you. I'd been pondering on the Marek Kordasiewicz book because I think it will give me more detailed information on the area to complement the books I already have. Also in English, which helps greatly as translating the books I have which are written in German is for me quite painstaking and slow. That will be my Christmas present :)