Glass Message Board
Glass Discussion & Research. NO IDENTIFICATION REQUESTS here please. => Belgium and the Netherlands Glass => Topic started by: sydamsterdam on May 22, 2006, 06:05:32 PM
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Could anyone possibly help me? I have a set (incomplete) of wonderful glassware, but have been unlucky finding a) the brand and thus b) more pieces. It could be from the 30's or remake from the 50's. I found lookalikes only, however never the exact same ones...
Here are the pix...
http://kunstantiek.2dehands.nl/markt/antiek/glaswerk-kristal/13255606-jaren-20-of-30-kristal.html?ses=1loplLeSGEX14eE
Hope anyone can help!
Sydney from Amsterdam
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You can try a company in the United States which deals in stemware from
all over the world.
It is called Replacements Ltd. and it is located in Greensboro, North
Carolina. You can find their site on the net
They have thousands of stemware from all over the world and are consistered very professional.
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This is 'Carex' by Andries Copier from 1935. A classic Leerdam design from the end of his 'best' period.
You can certainly find some of it around (it also comes in uranium ('ANNA') green.
Illustrated in many books including the standard reference Annette Kley Blekxtoon page 107.
You will probably find that a set of six liquer glasses is going to cost about 50 euros and a set of wine glasses at least 100 in the marketplace. (Dealers are asking a lot more!)
There's a list of relevant dealers on my website.
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Sorry Jay, I disagree. Although there are similarities, this is not Carex. If you observe both photo's (book and link above) closely you will see these glasses are different.
I suggested Sydney to post his photo's here as his search in Holland and having contacted replacements failed.
These glasses seem definitely not Dutch.
Anyone other suggestions?
Glasshypo (saskia)
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Hallo Saskia,
Met Jay heb ik inmiddels gemaild en hij heeft mij een bladzijde uit een catalogus gestuurd, waarop 'mijn' glas wel staat. Dat is Carex, maar... het kan zijn dat dit glas op de foto staat 'ter inspiratie' aangezien Copier door de fransman Jean Luce werd geïnspireerd. Ik kan je die foto wel sturen als je wilt. Het blijft moeilijk hoor!
Met groet,
Sydney
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Sydney,
Am surprised, but pleasantly.
Could it be that the Carex glasses where indeed inspired by the Frenchman Jean Luce (company??) design? Could this be the original than? Posting your information in English could perhaps give additional (if available) information from others.
It is a puzzle?
Sure would like to receive the photo. Always interested in glass and information.
Sorry Jay, you suggested once to join this forum, seems interesting already.
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Yeah, English is better... what's your e-mail address? I can't seem to find a way to find it... here...
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Jay,
The page you mentioned is of the newest Leerdam book? The 1879-1998 book page 110 shows Carex to be different from the pictures in the link above.
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Hi all, and welcome glasshypo.
Sydney and I have tried to research this question and I think we can only clarify the question by referring to the literature.
There are three books which seem to agree exactly on what is 'Carex'.
They are credited here and the photograph is copyright of the named publisher. (Sorry I can't manage better copies of the images at this moment)
The first image comes from the 1937 Leerdam catalogue which shows the 'Carex' and 'Robur'.
http://www.hogelandshoeve.nl/gmb/carex%201937.jpg
I've tried to enlarge the photo of 'Carex' for a clearer view.
http://www.hogelandshoeve.nl/gmb/carex%201937b.jpg
The second image appears in 'Modern Glass in Nederland' by Titus Eliens. (Waanders/Gemeentemuseum Den Haag,2002 ISBN 9040086710)
http://www.hogelandshoeve.nl/gmb/carex%20te.jpg
The author also states '..the Carex drinks service, described in the company's designer glass catalogue of 1935/36 as a service for everyday use, 'which is able to withstand a knock or two'. The service derives it's name from the square cut glass foot supporting the egg-shaped bowl of the glass. The design of the foot is odd to say the least, because the shape suggests the use of a press-moulding technique. Copier is said to have been inspired to produce the design, which is not at all typical of his functional design philosophy, by a similar squarefooted glass created by the French Art Deco designer Jean Luce (1895-1964)'
This image is also reprinted in 'AD Copier & Lino Tagliapietra; Inspiration in Glass (Gemeente Museum Den Haag /Snoeck-Ducaju, 2000, ISBN 9 789053 493236)
There is a third image which clearly reflects the same service. Originally printed in 'AD Copier-Glasontwerper'by Reino Liefkes (Waanders/Prins Berhardfonds, 2002 ISBN 90-400-9602-3)
http://www.hogelandshoeve.nl/gmb/carex%20rl.JPG
I think we will all probably agree that these images are NOT the design which Sydney wants to have identified.
But then we discover that there IS a picture which (IMHO) showns Sydney's glass.
It appears on page 110 of the "Leerdam bible"; 'Leerdam Glass 1878-2003' by Annet van der Kley-Blekxtoon.
http://www.hogelandshoeve.nl/gmb/carex%20akb.jpg
There it is!!
On the extreme left, and clearly identified as Carex. (??)
Actually if you look carefully that last glass looks kinda out of place, the foot is disproportionately thicker and the rim is clearly flared (rather than the 'egg-shaped' bowl referred to and seen above).
Is it possible that there is a mis-identification in the standard reference work? Could the former director of the National Glass Museum have made a mistake?
I must say that on reflection I am inclined to think that this must be the case.
Obviously it remains a possibility that Sydney's glasses are from Leerdam and even from Copier, but the pattern name probably isn't Carex.
There is no reference to another sqaurefooted service in my Leerdam literature. (But then the literature is not always complete or correct)
I guess we need to ask what the design by Jean Luce looked like (Can anybody help??)
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Perhaps Annet van der Kley-Blekxtoon
Could that one piece have been the Luce piece included as homage. Or it really is Carex. The candle holder(?) design looks odd too, with the other pieces.
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Frank, do you have contact with her then?
If you can get the lady to join GMB and answer questions I will be your friend for life!!! ;-)
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Could that one piece have been the Luce piece included as homage.
My best guess too.
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Never sar never, but...
The quotation about the Jean Luce inspiration comes from a different book.
The Kley-Blekxtoon book doesn't mention Luce, and doesn't refer in the text to anything else which would explain an imposter in the picture.
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Jay,
I know, I own this book (Modern Glas in Nederland) too, not the latest version of the Leerdam book though, so the picture of this left glass in this version of the Leerdam book surprised me.
This particular form was not pictured in the earlier version, only similar photo's of the "real" Carex you posted above.
Perhaps it is too simple to add up 1 and 1? But the shape is so differently and also sizes in Sydney's pictures would suggest that for different glasses two versions (the "real" Carex and the one's in Raymond pictures) would have been made??
I had never encountered the name Luce before, not read my own book well enough (shame on me :oops: )??
Is there an expert on French glass on the forum?
Anyone who knows any book mentioning glassware from this (I googled and found quite interesting items) man?
Apologies for any "bad English" as it is not my native language.
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Jay,
An additional question.
My Leerdam book says the Carex range is:
six glasses, water bottle, decanter, goblet, finger bowl.
This would with the additional glasses in Sydney's picture, be to many for the description. The candle holder is not mentioned in my book either.
Has this information changed in the recent copy of this (your) book or is the text still the same?
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I think this is a typical case of misattribution finding its way into a book. The glass with the bell shape is clearly not the rounded Leerdam Carex model; whoever took the picture thought every glass with a square foot must be Carex.
But square footed glasses are not exclusive to Leerdam. I'm sure if you handled one of Sydneys glasses and a Leerdam Carex you would see differences in quality, in thickness, in clarity, in crystal and weight. Not to mention the bowl shape which bears no relation.
Sydney's glasses could have been made in Belgium or in France or in Germany or in Sweden by any one of a dozen manufacturers. Apparently not many have been made; the manufacturing process with flared out rims and square cut feet is quite expensive and these glasses are fragile, so they would have been expensive at the time. I have no idea how or why Jean Luce entered the discussion - but he shouldn't be in this equasion. So it's back to square one, I'm afraid.
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Ivo, Jean Luce entered the discussion because of the quote from Titus Eliens (see above).
I'd also suggest that we DO know that the photo in Kley-Blextoon was taken at/by the National Glass Museum.
This would seem to me to suggest that the glass at the left is very likely Dutch. What would it be doing in the museum at all otherwise?
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Seems like a good question for the museum, then.
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Working on it.
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Any progress on this one, Frank?
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What do you folks think of these pieces?
(http://www.ysartglass.com/forum/Squarefeet.jpg)
I had no response re Kley-Blekxtoon yet but am still trying.
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Incidentally Jean Luce opened his design studio in 1931.
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hello Frank,
Nice picture, resembling very well the photo’s of Sydney’s glasses.
Could be the bell is somewhat wider at the foot, but than it is handmade and differences are often found in handmade glasses. The decanter fits lovely to the glasses. The shape of the known Carex decanter (seen in one of the pictures of Jay) is one based on an old, very often used, design from the Gilde service. Only there the stopper differs to match the square form of the foot of the Carex glasses.
The shape of the decanter in your picture (where on earth did you find this???, very curious) differs from any Leerdam decanter I have ever seen.
So at first glance, this is the service Sydney is looking for. As the decanter also differs from Carex as pictured, think Sydney’s glass service is a different service all together and most probably not Leerdam.
Botterweg with a lot of knowledge (known to you I presume?) and other glass dealers are all convinced (Sydney contacted a lot of dealers) this is not a Leerdam glass service.
Only thing I could imagine that it was a prototype, which could than explain why nobody knows this service. The shape of the decanter I personally find to be not Leerdam, but that is just my feeling, which is of course very subjective.
But then, if it was a prototype, you probably would expect, as it is a family service Sydney inherited, this would have been known in the family to be a unique service.
So for this time being, not having an answer from v.d. Kley-Bekxtoon, still think this is a “foreign” (not Dutch) service.
So Jean Luce still looks very possible to me.
Don’t leave me (us) in the dark too long, am very curious where you found this picture.
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Hi all (apologies for temporary absence due to deceased technology, now replaced, back, big and bouncy)
I don't have anything to add except more questions...
I've looked closely at my own examples of these and similar products and designs from the period. This design has a square form and a curved form (obviously) and they are attached which seems to have been quite a technical challenge. In the assumption that they date any/somewhere between 1915 and 1960 and are made of thin glass, and given the flared rim, the bowl must surely have been blown NOT by a machine. But the technique for the foot, and the means off combining the two are the essential characteristics.
The flared rim is typical of Copier's Romanda (and others) so the bowl-shape is a feature which does not exclude Leerdam or Maastricht.
Sometimes the 'design-solution' seems to be to cast small squares of glass and then attach them to the base of a separate (blown) stem. The (slight) height variation seems to focus on this spot, suggesting that the two forms have been 'glued' together with slightly more or less 'glue'.
I would also be also interested to know from Sydney whether the thickness of the foot is identical, or scales slightly with the various models.
Some have a foot which looks (almost) pressed and similar designs have a smaller square added into the sandwich.
Sufficiently detailed images are beyond me!more than my eyes or my camera can manage.
This is also a design which is a challenge for production. It is hard enough to hand-blow identical glasses, but the rigid geometry of the foot is even more unforgiving.
I note as well that Frank's illustration seems to allow for a broader contact between the curved bowl and the square base, but then, it's an illustration, and it certainly wouldn't surprise me if the actual manufactured object was slightly narrower at the 'join'. (Maybe they got better at making them then the early version provided to the illustrator ;-))
Finally I am a little concerned that we have two very simple forms and we cannot exclude the possibility that the same inspiration has struck in several places.
Come on Frank! Pull back the little black curtain and we'll all gasp at our own foolishness.
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First, the illustrations are almost certainly photographic, photo-mechanical.
But what is really significant about these is that they represent the breaking moment of Art Deco and were exhibited at the Exposition Des Arts Décoratifs et Industriels in Paris, 1925.
The suite was called "Pour le Yacht" and appeared on the opening page of the catalogue for the company Compagnie Des Cristalleries de Baccarat.
Of course we still do not know the designer.
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Nice find! Interesting as well. Very important exhibition at that time and of course still is.
The glass service of Copier named Smeerwortel was awarded a silver medal at this exact exhibition in Paris. Most likely Copier was there at the exhibition and was inspired, as will others have been.
Perhaps he took a glass (the one in the picture) home???
Would indeed be very interesting to know the designer.
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I have written to Baccarat about this and another item in the catalogue which might be even more important.
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Willing to share the other important item? This is a nice "jacht" (Dutch for hunt).
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I will be, but it is being discussed off board at present. Maybe next week. I doubt it will be as exciting for you though :wink:
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Hi All,
I'm happily surprised that you're all still working on it! It seems more difficult than any trivial pursuit question, though. The image that Frank added is indeed quite interesting, however, to me it seems that the designer of 'my' glass was inspired or simply stole the design. My set is really handblown/handmade. Even though I don't know much about it, every glass (even the same sized glasses) all have slightly different sizes, with slightly different thicknesses of the square stem. My glasses are 'glued' higher on the stem and it seems that these stems aren't flat, like mine. I've added two more (and better) images made from a different angle. Just go to my initial message and link. You can definitely see how clear the glass is. The black and white image that Frank added also shows that very slender looking glass on the left, of which I don't have an example here. I don't think it was ever part of this set I have. Neither do I remember the karaf.
It was also suggested that this set was never actually in production and that we're talking about a prototype kind of set. Could be, maybe my grandmother bought a showroom set for a great deal? It's possible... And maybe that's the reason that it's not found anywhere else, except for a few lost pieces in this world. There may only have been a few showroom sets made by.... Leerdam?. It's one of the most likely solutions, especially since only one glass is in that Leerdam catalogue and that Carex was actually derived from this one (because it was too expensive to produce the original design). It makes sense. It was all about money in the end :? .
Sydney
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Looking at all three pictures of the lookalikes, the glass in the Leerdam book resembles Sydney's glasses the most.
So information from that source would still be helpfull. Hopefully there will be a reaction from this side too.
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Yes, the text is the same in the 2004 edition.
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At last, I have been able to speak to the real experts! and they tell me that they have now explained the discrepancy on Page 107 of Annette Kley-Blekxtoon's 'Leerdam Glass (1878-2003)
The glass at the extreme left is from another service in an adjoining 'box' and is now attributed with some certainty to Gebr. Muller.
This should be noted as an erratum!
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But what is really significant about these is that they represent the breaking moment of Art Deco and were exhibited at the Exposition Des Arts Décoratifs et Industriels in Paris, 1925.
The suite was called "Pour le Yacht" and appeared on the opening page of the catalogue for the company Compagnie Des Cristalleries de Baccarat.
Of course we still do not know the designer.
Now we do, courtesy Baccarat, designer was Georges Chevalier in 1925
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As I have lost the e-mail address and you cannot be contacted otherwise: Sydney if you read this and still are looking for completing this service. I found some small glasses.
See on website www.nationaalglasmuseum.nl, search Latour, Muller
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Apparently Daum made a similar service.
See on Marktplaats (the Dutch second hand market place):
http://antiek-kunst.marktplaats.nl/antiek-glas-en-kristal/570325273-daum-nancy-art-deco-kristal-karaf-8-glaasjes.html?return=eJw1jctqwzAQRf8lEO%2F8kGQlQUYEZ9XfELYaC8vS4BlD2tJ%2F76iQ3TmXe2ecEeYnmG5AI1VvTujdPi3DQgSmbdcMPjWb21eC6Bxhk2LrEgW%2F1j7V65GQ3v6MDv%2FDPSC52E7i0t%2BahbZ4f0Urqhkt5bMaxVk9oniDLMDFwsT8HYARP2dkYYISdgwb52M6Nr%2BHqZRfZahFpy7FvtjUtdeS7z0yBlZZhSe%2FBThsV4HVFWSkKc%2Feai3Fx3gafv8AUXlNaw%3D%3D&fta=eNotj81yhCAQhN%2BFg2eGH5GhPOSWU17BQkFjFbtSi25Mtvbdg%2BKF%2BuhumGmLCl8JGyTbI3RPGxIxCQEAyR5aqFxq1wXBBDgOhlCLxoQV%2F%2BZo0ugSmrgiNbeI9%2B3mH%2FNgwo4ggfLahF%2FkSkjGzJJmZNU85Q9j3FpaxVZWcUnrsDjfSsng8%2BOYK5BEO3liZpT5ypHMriykNBIGox8sdfsBttf9CZ4JWhTd6xOGRlwZOaoTtLBQwlSyy3Il03h9vWJWFEXzS%2BFgiyLqYikPzQWUF9BQwv2oS1jJoYxQXKpz91xjXaJ1qQv%2BPq3fRz2ajVzpZvfuaJxLOpRaZJUhsT%2FEfF34JMYixdf7%2FQ8oc4EO&fta_ind=17&fs=1&thumb_click=1#photo (http://antiek-kunst.marktplaats.nl/antiek-glas-en-kristal/570325273-daum-nancy-art-deco-kristal-karaf-8-glaasjes.html?return=eJw1jctqwzAQRf8lEO%2F8kGQlQUYEZ9XfELYaC8vS4BlD2tJ%2F76iQ3TmXe2ecEeYnmG5AI1VvTujdPi3DQgSmbdcMPjWb21eC6Bxhk2LrEgW%2F1j7V65GQ3v6MDv%2FDPSC52E7i0t%2BahbZ4f0Urqhkt5bMaxVk9oniDLMDFwsT8HYARP2dkYYISdgwb52M6Nr%2BHqZRfZahFpy7FvtjUtdeS7z0yBlZZhSe%2FBThsV4HVFWSkKc%2Feai3Fx3gafv8AUXlNaw%3D%3D&fta=eNotj81yhCAQhN%2BFg2eGH5GhPOSWU17BQkFjFbtSi25Mtvbdg%2BKF%2BuhumGmLCl8JGyTbI3RPGxIxCQEAyR5aqFxq1wXBBDgOhlCLxoQV%2F%2BZo0ugSmrgiNbeI9%2B3mH%2FNgwo4ggfLahF%2FkSkjGzJJmZNU85Q9j3FpaxVZWcUnrsDjfSsng8%2BOYK5BEO3liZpT5ypHMriykNBIGox8sdfsBttf9CZ4JWhTd6xOGRlwZOaoTtLBQwlSyy3Il03h9vWJWFEXzS%2BFgiyLqYikPzQWUF9BQwv2oS1jJoYxQXKpz91xjXaJ1qQv%2BPq3fRz2ajVzpZvfuaJxLOpRaZJUhsT%2FEfF34JMYixdf7%2FQ8oc4EO&fta_ind=17&fs=1&thumb_click=1#photo)