Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: glassobsessed on July 18, 2010, 05:01:40 PM
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Out of my comfort zone here as you can probably tell from the title of this thread.
Trying to id this vase, it's a little over 22cm tall with a snapped pontil mark, a folded and 'ruffled' rim and then there is the blue pineappley moulded bit too. It glows under UV light and there is a fair amount of ash or frit in the glass, not a high quality item.
My guess is Empoli but I'm floundering....
Thanks,
John
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Not Empoli - you'd sooner have to look in the direction of mid-19th century French Opaline, perhaps Valerysthal, perhaps Saint Louis, perhaps even Baccarat.
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Which bit glows? :o Looks related to my urn thingy. Scroll down http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,2220.0.html
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That's interesting Ivo, my first thought on seeing it was "is it Opaline" and I wondered about early 20th century (but not any earlier) but when I saw it in daylight it didn't look like Opaline to me. Not that I have much (read any) experience of handling that kind of glass. I will have a nose around this week and see what emerges.
The 'white' sections of glass glow Christine, but very faintly - not a strong reaction to UV, this photo was taken with the fluorescent tube right next to the glass otherwise there would be nothing to see. I see what you mean about your urn thingy too.
John
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Does Christine thingy had sharper (diamond shape) knobs than yours -- or is it my eyes? Is your knobby things look more bumpy and circular ?
Just a question...as I washed out all the sleep from my eyes now ;D
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Mine's got ribs not knobs. That's not uranium John - too palely green. My green bit glows really bright green. Both have the same roughish pontil mark though.
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Cheers Christine, not Empoli, not uranium, how wrong can my description get? ;D
Hopefully it IS a high quality item... :D
John
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Oh yes, look at Ivo's answer.
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After having had a little nose around the net I think Ivo is on the right track (thanks Ivo). Can't pin down a maker yet but in terms of style mid 19th century looks good, I've now seen a few items which share features with the vase.
The vase is not Uranium ::) but it is Opaline and it feels quite heavy for it's size so probably "demi-crystal", which would fit. Will try and get some more photos of it tomorrow.
All my books cover 20th century glass, sadly I have nothing on the 19th century.
Can a moderator change the title to something more appropriate? Thanks.
John
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This is Sandwich glass (U.S.) circa 1850-1870....
/Blair
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Do you have a reference please Blair?
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nice vase...I love opaline!
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Do you have a reference please Blair?
It's shown in "A Guide To Sandwich Glass: Vases, Colognes And Stoppers" by Raymond E. Barlow. I don't have the specific page handy.. ;D
/Blair
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Thank you :)
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Thank you very much Blair for the information that will be very useful. :clap:
As an aside, after looking through as many images as I could find of French Opaline glass I had my suspicions that the vase was not French. Nothing I could really put my finger on, just a hunch and I was beginning to lean towards an English manufacturer.....
Thank you everyone for your help. :hiclp:
John
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don't take anything for granted. And see if you can find a copy of http://www.amazon.com/opalines-French-Christine-Vincendeau/dp/285917236X.
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Ok Ivo I won't, what are your doubts?
If I see a copy of Les Opalines or any other book on glass going at a good price I would buy it. You can't have too many books (picked up two on caving yesterday in a charity shop), even a couple on glass I have had for ages that I thought were of minimal interest have turned out to be very useful and informative.
John
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Nearly 14 years later another one, lightning striking twice?
The bobbles caught my attention, almost look applied but there are what look like a few very faint mould lines on the blue section.
John
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As glasshound mentioned these are likely google “Boston Sandwich free blown mold blown hobnail vase”
Also sawtooth vase pointy Knop instead of raspberry. I can send a picture of the Boston sandwich book if you like.
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/free-blown-mold-blown-oval-hobnail-3825291598
There are more in this auction.
The picture shows one that arrived on my doorstep on Saturday..
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Where did yours arrive from?
I see some significant differences to the Sawtooth pattern vase which is similar, they have a different shape foot and far fewer crimps around the rim to start with.
https://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/free-blown-blown-molded-sawtooth-vase-4690607581
Attributions that are 'handed down' and followed meekly are like a red flag as far as I am concerned, convenient for dealers and reassuring to buyers but often built on sand. I wonder at the chances of me finding two identical bits of imported American glass from this era.
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Found in the UK. Yes agree the rims are different from the sawtooth version.
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I really have no idea about these but (as perhaps Ivo was alluding to?) my first thoughts for searching would have been Baccarat or Saint-Louis.
The decor is I think referred to as 'Ananas'?
Pressglas-Korrespondenz has some information here but nothing exactly the same:
https://pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2013-3w-vogt-bacc-louis-opalin-vasen.pdf
There may be more information on Pressglas-Korrespondenz but that was the first I found.
The rim is a bit strange - I'd normally expect to see a flat rim maybe? but to be honest my knowledge is fleeting and very limited.
m
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Thanks for the link m, funnily enough the Boston Sandwich book does show and mention many similarities between sandwich and Baccarat items. It shows John’s and my version along side the sawtooth version which has a slightly different rim so it wouldn’t be a surprise if both made extremely similar items.
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It reminded me of Ekimp's vase for some reason:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,72597.msg403894.html#msg403894
Reference here to a Saint-Louis perfume bottle with bubbles but does have a wavy rim:
https://pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2005-2w-mannoni-opalines.pdf
See seite 131 for yellow bottle.
Wavy rims were in use as I have two Pate de Riz cake stands mid 19th,blown glass, with an applied trailed pink wavy rim and also had a small salt in white pate de riz with an applied pink wavy rim. I just don't think of them on these pressed vases I suppose.
m
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More examples here - one in blue with wavy rim - perfume I think Seite 7
https://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2007-2w-sg-louis-dose-ananas.pdf
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Mike kindly sent me a photo from the Boston & Sandwich book showing the both the Sawtooth and 'Ananas' vases, the text was interesting too stating that some of the Sawtooth vases had no hole between the centre and the trumpet as they could be "plugged with an excess of glass from the trumpet". I have not seen anything like that with the two Ananas vases, how open is yours Mike?
Quite what relevance this may have is moot but I think that on the Ananas vases the upper and lower rows of bobbles are applied rather than moulded like the rest, some have irregular shape and positioning. They might help disguise the join a bit too, from photos the sawtooth pattern looks entirely moulded, it would be nice to have one to compare in the flesh!
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Yes mine is open so you could almost place a pencil inside which would go down to the bottom of the white part which I wasn’t even expecting. So the top part is like a tube. Is that the same as yours. Mine is also Uranium.
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Here is a glow and normal picture with a Baccarat vase seen in the previous link https://pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2013-3w-vogt-bacc-louis-opalin-vasen.pdf
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on the balance of likelihood, I think it very unlikely that three mid 19th century American opaline vases would turn up here. It's far more likely they are French, at least until proven otherwise, so I'd be searching there first.
I also think it's unlikely the upper and lower bobbles were hand applied. Could it be a function of the mold shape making them more squashed/misshapen perhaps?
Obviously these are just my thoughts and point of view. I have zero technical expertise to base those thoughts on :)
m
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I tend to agree (knowing nothing about American glass exports of the day) a reasonable working assumption. Your thoughts very welcome.
Those bobble variations could well be something to do with reheating when the sections were joined.
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Another molded version. Most where done as the previous ones pictured so far. This is the only short version I have ever seen.
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Cagney, maybe Saint-Louis? Scroll down on this link and you'll see a shelf of green and white. Second from left top shelf has spiky bobbles. I can't find a better photograph right now but last night I enlarged the pic a little better and the bobbles are spiky/pointed if I am seeing it correctly. The rim looks different to yours admittedly but I think the bobbles could be the same. Also green and white as you'll see:
https://www.mv-bracelet.com/cristallerie/cristal-saint-louis/
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Yes, the pattern is the mitered diamond or sawtooth. Nice to see the French version of these vases. As I would suspect the French version a bit more ornate/refined.
Loved your photos taken in natural light on your thread of creamer/jug.
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Cagney thank you re the jug/creamer photographs :)
Is your smaller vase Sandwich then? Do you know roughly what period please?
It is very interesting to compare to the one in the link to the Saint-Louis version. I wish the photograph was clearer so the detail could be seen but unfortunately I've not found another picture at all of the green cabinet.
there is an interesting discussion in Pressglas-Korrespondenz regarding French and Sandwich designs:
https://pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2013-1w-boston-inkwell-1878-baccarat-1870.pdf
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This pattern is actually pictured in Barlow/Kaisers last installment of their "A GUIDE TO SANDWICH GLASS" Cut Ware, A General Assortment And Bottles. It is the same color combination and form as the vase in the start of this thread, except the top rim is folded and gauffered instead of being clamped to produce the top rim design. Dates are given as 1850-1870.
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Thank you :)
Going back to a previous conversation on the thread I am now curious as to whether yours is open right into the the middle green segment or is the trumpet closed/sealed at the bottom inside before the middle segment starts?
And is the green uranium glass?
Apologies for so many questions but the differences might be future indicators of differentiating various pieces perhaps.
m
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Thanks for those links m, I wonder if Cagney’s small one has the same rim as the sawtooth one in the previous link as the St Louis picture looks like it has flat spots on the rim and a band around the lower part of the trumpet. It would be good to know if Cagneys small one has an open channel into the white knop.
Let’s face I expect St Louis,Baccarat and Boston Sandwich all made their own versions.
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They probably did, but if it's possible to separate out whether it is Saint-Louis or Sandwich then that's interesting :)
There is also this one which appears to possibly have the trumpet part broken off but seems to have been open to the middle spiky portion of the vase:
https://www.pressglas-pavillon.de/vasen/02409.html
and this one from Christine which has an unpolished pontil mark/base (the original one on this thread appeared to have a polished pontil mark - see second link below to compare):
Christine's version:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php/topic,2220.msg161284.html#msg161284
John's original vase on thread:
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=34877.0;attach=51498;image
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I sold the vase some years ago. I remember it well though. The opening into the body was fashioned neatly and I could stick my pinky finger through the opening. Also the green body tested positive for uranium. Shards of this particular blown molded pattern were dug at the Sandwich site by Mr. Barlow Personally back in the day, in various colors. The pattern is called "blunted diamond and prism". A bit of a misnomer I think. the diamonds are soft and and a bit rounded , but still a point.
The open bottom of the foot on some examples has always been suspect in my mind. Just not a thing in American glass in this period, unusual. Seems to be a thing in the sawtooth version. Twingedsphinx suggestion likely.
Christines vase I am not sure what to think. The Mellon ribbed body bespeaks Bohemia, But the heavy top rim treatment says not.
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Some more eye candy.
https://jeffreysevans.com/auction/free-blown-and-blown-molded-blunted-diamond-and-prism-vase/ (https://jeffreysevans.com/auction/free-blown-and-blown-molded-blunted-diamond-and-prism-vase/)
https://jeffreysevans.com/auction/free-blown-and-blown-molded-sawtooth-vase-with-rare-decoration-ball/]https://jeffreysevans.com/auction/free-blown-and-blown-molded-sawtooth-vase-10/
[url]https://jeffreysevans.com/auction/free-blown-and-blown-molded-sawtooth-vase-with-rare-decoration-ball/ (https://jeffreysevans.com/auction/free-blown-and-blown-molded-sawtooth-vase-10/
[url)
https://jeffreysevans.com/auction/free-blown-and-blown-molded-sawtooth-vase-with-extremely-rare-decoration-ball/ (https://jeffreysevans.com/auction/free-blown-and-blown-molded-sawtooth-vase-with-extremely-rare-decoration-ball/)
https://live.jeffreysevans.com/online-auctions/jeffrey-evans/free-blown-and-blown-molded-sawtooth-vase-5415053 (https://live.jeffreysevans.com/online-auctions/jeffrey-evans/free-blown-and-blown-molded-sawtooth-vase-5415053)
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Three out of four not bad for me.
https://jeffreysevans.com/auction/free-blown-and-blown-molded-sawtooth-vase-with-rare-decoration-ball/ (https://jeffreysevans.com/auction/free-blown-and-blown-molded-sawtooth-vase-with-rare-decoration-ball/)
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Really interesting Cagney. Thank you for posting links.
The different colour blues on the same piece is strange to me:
https://jeffreysevans.com/auction/free-blown-and-blown-molded-sawtooth-vase-with-rare-decoration-ball/
Other odd things that occur to me - the ball on this doesn't seem to 'go with' the piece:
https://jeffreysevans.com/auction/free-blown-and-blown-molded-sawtooth-vase-with-extremely-rare-decoration-ball/
And the domed foot - is that normal for Sandwich glass? Is it hollow I wonder?
Re Christine's vase - I would search French first I think, partly because of the green of the opaline and partly because the ribbed and dotted design on the body is something they used on a particular type of vase called a Jasmine vase. That is a different shape completely to Christine's item but it's still a design link that would not make me discount a French maker.
Some examples here:
https://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2017-1w-boschet-jasminvase-korb-gruen-1840.pdf
Also the design of the foot.
That said, I know nothing about American glass so there is a huuuuge body of glass that I couldn't even contemplate trying to compare to. I'd think it more unlikely to find American glass here however with international sales I guess it becomes more likely than it was in the past.
m
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A green and white version of the blue ones you showed Cagney here:
https://www.liveauctioneers.com/price-result/free-blown-and-blown-molded-sawtooth-vase/
The foot on these is different to your shorter version.
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I think the different hues of blue may be a function of the lighting [how much light passes through at different points]. The same vase with virtually the same type ball in the green/white color way is pictured in the sandwich guide I mentioned earlier. The colors are homogeneous, that photo is more back lit.
Sandwich used the "oval" hobnail prodigiously in colognes, puff boxes, lamp fonts, other type vases and finials. Pressed and mold blown. To say there is an affinity toward the French could well be an understatement.
As to the open bottom foot I have kinda made my peace with it. The pictures I have seen of the bottom view there is a rough pontil mark on the inside. Not cracked off, then grind and polish the foot rim which I associate more with middle Europe.
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A couple of examples of very French Sandwich glass in the 'oval" hobnail pattern.
https://jeffreysevans.com/auction/assorted-pressed-sandwich-glass-articles-lot-of-four/ (https://jeffreysevans.com/auction/assorted-pressed-sandwich-glass-articles-lot-of-four/)
The puff box matches almost perfectly the the sugar no 43 illustrated in m's first link of pressglas-korrespondenz provided earlier in this thread. The difference according to Barlow/Kaisers sandwich guide is that the American version has a rough pontil mark inside the lid under the stem and the French version does not. They also say the French version is lighter in weight. The blue under plate in the link has 16 points and the French illustrated in pressglas-korrespondenz 14 points.
https://jeffreysevans.com/auction/blown-molded-oval-hobnail-cologne-bottle-11/ (https://jeffreysevans.com/auction/blown-molded-oval-hobnail-cologne-bottle-11/)
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The shape on the sugar box is very different as well though? At least to my eye. The B &S appears taller and more rounded square. The French version is oval. The underplate is very different. So I think the differences can be easily seen IF you were aware there were American versions and French versions. I suppose it underlines the need to ensure the design details are an accurate match.
Thanks so much for all the links and information. It's extremely interesting looking at the way inspiration was used at various factories.
Are there pattern books for the B&S versions at all?
m
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Perhaps I was too vague as to the French sugar. No. 43 in the catalogue illustrations, Saint Louis 1872 almost at the end.
https://pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2013-3w-vogt-bacc-louis-opaline-vasen.pdf (https://pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2013-3w-vogt-bacc-louis-opaline-vasen.pdf) A more tapered shape but still round, the under plate illustrated below in half plate.
Only one Sandwich catalogue known. It consist of goods lined up on shelfs against a black wall photographed. 80 pages and undated. Barlow/Kaiser settle on a date circa 1880. Nothing of the sort discussed in this thread.
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No my fault for not scrolling further to the end.
It's a very similar design. Not quite the same shape (or size maybe given one has 16 petal underplate and the other 14?) but closely related.
This is very interesting. Thanks for sharing your information and knowledge :)
m
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This dates to early 1880s I think but the information in here is relevant to our discussion on this thread ref French and American similarities.
See page 400 for information on how someone from Boston allegedly bought glass samples of each item from Compagnie des Cristallerie de Baccarat and then, the report says, those samples were copied and the French sales to the States ceased thereafter:
https://www.google.co.uk/books/edition/Commercial_Relations_of_the_United_State/gIs8AQAAIAAJ?hl=en&gbpv=1&dq=davenport+glass&pg=PA415&printsec=frontcover
As I say, this dates to I think the early 1880s though and is referencing copying allegedly happening 4 or 5 years earlier so 1870s ish: see photo.
Unfortunately the report merely talks about Baccarat launching new coloured glass designs and that samples of each of those were bought. It doesn't describe exactly what the designs were, what the colours were, or whether they were opaline glass. So not much help to us.
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Great research, thank you
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You're welcome.
I'm a bit curious though that some of the comments might be 'politically' inspired perhaps?
I mean if someone from Boston (or any glassmaker) wanted to copy French glass, surely they could have bought the items in the States. That said, perhaps the whole range wasn't easily obtainable or available there and so the opportunity to buy up the range direct from source was too good to miss maybe?
Either way , it's an interesting report direct from the horse's mouth at the time.
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And that’s why the Brits used the registered design lozenge to curb copying around this time. I’m not sure if the French or Americans ever used a similar idea. Apart from trademarks or names?
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They did register patents but I don't know about designs.
Baccarat was marked from ? maybe late 19th?
Saint-Louis is marked as well.
I remember a thread on here years ago where Bernard commented on it. The fact that glass factories didn't mark their items and how astonishing it was that someone would produce some fabulous art glass vase and it would then go out without makers mark on. By comparison to pottery/china and silver it is actually quite shocking.
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also I think from reading the reports,that it seems unlikely there would have been much American glass over here in the UK in that late 19th century period.
The report seems to ask how they can increase their exports to the various countries and the answer seems to be ... produce the products people want in that country, produce them on time, ship them on time and with packing rates that are comparable to competitors in Europe and have sales people over in the countries to sell the items.
The few I've read don't seem to indicate there are any insurmountable trade barriers in comparison to other countries so trade agreements/import tax doesn't seem to be the problem. It does appear that they were trying to find a way of increasing their trade with European countries.
Therefore, along with the design indicators, I'd say the opaline vases in this thread are more likely to be French than American?