Glass Message Board
Glass Identification - Post here for all ID requests => Glass => Topic started by: flying free on November 05, 2015, 01:03:47 PM
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I'm looking for confirmation of my thoughts please. They are based on some research not just plucked out of thin air :) but thought I'd ask for help before adding references and further thoughts.
It measures 2 3/8" long by about 1 1/2" wide.
I've added three sets of photos which should hopefully give enough detail.
Thanks for any input which is much appreciated.
m
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detail pics of design
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close ups of details
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Russian? - it may be but the wrting is written in Latin script. Does any hand writing expert know what sort of date this type of script date from? The letters are MT I think. Was it given by someone to their beloved?
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I believe the letters are MF and not MT
The birds holding the ribbons have one section of ribbon because the other strike belongs to the cross strike of the F.
I have a theory on what it might be, but of course, it might not.
What I would like to know is does the glass quality, the engraving quality and design and the engraved pontil mark fit with a late 18th century piece please? Having checked out a number of 18th century goblets I thought it did.
These are listed as 18th
https://www.bukowskis.com/en/auctions/556/1386-two-swedish-wine-glasses-kungsholm-s-18th-century
Since it is an egg and therefore has no special shape or applied bits to go on, it's a bit difficult on all the other bits i.e. rim/ stem/foot etc that would normally help.
Thank you for looking and if I can add more photos that might help please let me know.
m
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here is a clear closeup of the bird on the right. Very difficult to photograph because it is so tiny and because the gilding reflects or is worn off so makes it look as though it's messy when it isn't.
The bird has a minute three feather plume on it's head as well.
It's very different to the bird on a kluk kluk flasche I have also attached for comparison.
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The egg may or not be Russian. My thoughts are that it is.
I also think the egg is written in Latin.
This is what Wiki says about Russian Cursive:
'Russian (and Cyrillic in general) cursive was developed during the 18th century on the base of earlier Cyrillic tachygraphy,[2] re-shaped under the influence of contemporary Latin-based cursives.[3] It became handwritten counterpart of so-called civil (or Petrine) script of printed books. In order, modern Cyrillic italic typefaces are based (in their lowercase part) mostly on the cursive shape of letters.
The Latin influence on the Russian cursive resulted in numerous characters that are similar or completely identical to Latin ones'.
m
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Any help much appreciated :)
I'm thinking this is possibly c. 1780 ish for a specific reason.
Could it be earlier? or is that out of the question because of the script does anyone know?
Thank you for looking
m
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This krug is dated 1764.
It has similarities in the choice of design i.e. the garden theme, the criss cross decoration and the birds, so perhaps I am in the ball park on the date.
http://www.antiquitaeten-schlemmer.de/glas/glas-18-jh.htm#objekt3
http://www.antiquitaeten-schlemmer.de/gross/glas-hochzeitskrug.htm
http://www.antiquitaeten-schlemmer.de/glas/assets/glas-hochzeitskrug_gr.jpg
and this Beilby glass dates to c.1760 and also has a pyramidal obelisk on it although enamelled.
http://www.laurieleighantiques.com/picturepages/W1398.html
The birds are perhaps supposed to be turtle doves but would they have crests?
Re the script style, this Lauenstein glass has a letter P engraved in a similar style to the MF on the egg
http://www.warnerantiques.com/index.pl?isa=Metadot::SystemApp::AntiqueSearch;op=detail;id=215354;image=805055;
So the pontil mark, the gilding and engraving and the design, and the script style of the lettering, as well as the quality of the glass all seem to be around that period to my very untrained
eye.
Any comments welcome :)
m
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The birds are perhaps supposed to be turtle doves but would they have crests?
They do not have a crest.
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no, I didn't think they did.
I wonder what they are supposed to be then?
I've done quite a bit of searching and can't find any relevant birds with a crest with that longer neck - they are crested pigeon/dove look alikes aren't they in terms of shape?
The crested birds I've found tend to have short squat necks.
Also there is a deliberate ring engraved around their necks ???
Perhaps they aren't relevant but I am pretty sure this is Russian and 18th century. So have been searching birds in Russia.
m
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sorry,just had to look up what I found last night quickly - I'd come up with a crested plover or crested lapwing??
crested Northern Lapwing here
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Northern_lapwing
m
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if you google Russian gzhel bird then many folk art stylised Russian bird depictions come up and they have three plumes as a crest (most of them - the odd one doesn't have any and some have a further long curled ''headdress').
Mind you I don't know how far back that folk style of depiction/decoration goes.
m
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I'd forgotten that I'd found this link.
This is a bird enamelled and gilded on a blue opaline beaker - Russian, in the Hermitage Museum, dated c.1830 ish iirc.
If you click on the arrows on the bottom right hand corner the picture enlarges. You can then press the + button on the top right hand corner to see further enlargements which show the details.
The birds have little crests as the birds on my egg :)
http://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/portal/hermitage/digital-collection/08.+Applied+Arts/918344/?lng=en
Details from Museum reference:
Russia, 1830-1840s
Title:
Glass with the Depiction of Birds, and Vases with Flowers and Fruits
Place of creation:Russia
Date:1830-1840s
Material:light-blue glass
Technique:blowing, painted in gold
Dimensions:13,2x8,2x8,2 cm
Inventory Number:
ЭРС-909
Happy New Year :)
m
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this is not related at all but I thought it was lovely so am posting it:
it's 320 years old :o engraved hexagonal bottle dated 1694
http://ces.mkcr.cz/en/img/1/4/3/p72240.jpg
description says
'Šestiboká láhev z čirého skla se zátkou, zdobená rytým matovaným vegetabilním dekorem, nápis: 'F. P. F. W. O. P. 1694'; sklárna Pustá Rybná, 1694, inv. č.: 10A-572.'
Hexagonal bottle of clear glass with stopper , decorated with an engraved matt vegetal decoration , the inscription : ' F. F. W. P. O. P. 1694 ' ; glassworks desolate Rybná , 1694, inv. no .: 10A -572
(from -Collection of Regional Museum in Litomyšl)
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I think they are crested ringneck doves or something very similar (assuming they were around 200 years ago as doves have been bred for captivity of thousands of year as I read)
http://www.dovepage.com/species/domestic/Ringneck/colors/crested.jpg
and pursuing my theory of the egg being Russian I came across this book on my searches:
https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=43vVAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA48&lpg=PA48&dq=do+they+keep+birds+in+cages+in+russia&source=bl&ots=_WAkySrjXD&sig=4xnqT6GMzVvv0XEn2Zv0MK31fkM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjbvqXK3M_LAhWHCBoKHesjAHsQ6AEIMzAF#v=onepage&q=do%20they%20keep%20birds%20in%20cages%20in%20russia&f=false
Russia and the Russians, in 1842
By Johann Georg Kohl
On page 48 of the book describes the keeping or using of animals and birds in Russia at that time and has a description of dove keeping. I've photographed the page
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The book goes into detail in small sections on the glass in Russia during 1842 and earlier.
There are a number of references.
Firstly, discussing the quality of the 'earlier' looking glass mirrors in the Taurian Palace and remarking on the poor quality and waves in the mirrors when seen close up. It refers to those as dating' from the old times of Petersburg glass manufacture'. Then again later in the book where he comments that there has been replacement looking glass put in to the palace and discusses again the poor quality of the original glass but goes on to remark on the very good quality of the new replacement glass in comparison to the original mirrors still left in there 'and,on comparing them with more recent productions, you see what advances have since been made.'
Secondly the book talks in some detail about the crystal eggs produced in the imperial (sic) manufactury in presumably 1842 when the book was written.
There is a description of glass easter eggs saying they are given by people to each other at Easter and describing them as ‘a peculiar interest’ and ‘the many thousand crystal eggs of all colours, polished to the highest degree that art can attain, with which the Russians present one another at Easter.’
It describes the ‘establishment for grinding glass’ as ‘perhaps the largest of the kind in the world’ as says there were no fewer than 300 people working in it. (note, when he talks about the establishment for grinding glass I believe he is referring to the number of people in the grinding department alone within the Imperial Manufactory, not number of people in the whole factory)
Further on he gives another description of the glass eggs being decorated engraved with flowers and figures and some of them being made for the Imperial family to give to grandees. It says the grandees often received a number of these eggs so gave them away again and passed them onto others at succeeding easters.
Directly under these paragraphs and descriptions of the glass eggs, he mentions very briefly the porcelain eggs and how they are not to be outdone by the glass eggs and are painted and decorated and hung with ribbon. He notes specifically here that anyone can buy them.
That's it. No more on the porcelain eggs, much more descriptive on the glass eggs interestingly.
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Decanter dated c.1740 with similarly engraved tulips on
https://scottishantiques.com/georgian-table-glass/decanters-carafes/georgiandecanter
see image link here for those on the egg
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=61429.0;attach=183321;image
when comparing just a note to say the tulip on the egg is tiny and engraved over the pontil mark, whereas the tulips on the decanter appear to be somewhere in the region of 1 3/4" tall. The whole egg is less than 2 1/2" tall.
On the trellis obelisk:
No idea as to the authenticity of the information in this article from 2014 in the Florida Times-Union 27 June 2014
http://jacksonville.com/homes/2014-06-27/story/obelisks-are-ancient-garden-ornament-plenty-modern-style
but an extract
says:
'...Garden obelisks were perhaps at the height of their popularity in the 17th century, when Andre Le Notre, the great landscape architect of the palace of Versailles, set a pair of them at the gates to the French king’s extravagant country estate. Within the gates, topiary obelisks held strategic echoing positions in the artful parterres. In the 17th and 18th centuries, trellis-work obelisks were used extensively in clipped and controlled Dutch gardens. Garden historians describe obelisks as “practically ubiquitous” in 18th-century English and Irish gardens, where stone obelisks framed the views. They were often engraved with commemorative inscriptions.'
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So possibly now is the time to embarrass myself and put forward my thoughts to be shot down in flames ;D
The monogrammed script M is the same as the monogram for Maria Feodorovna who was married to Paul of Russia.
On a pediment on the Pavlosk Palace there is a combined monogram for Paul and Maria Feodorovna that is exactly the same M.
https://i1.wp.com/img-fotki.yandex.ru/get/4516/84064482.159/0_9b288_9c4c63b4_orig.jpg?ssl=1
see on the left here also the monogram cypher for Maria Feodorovna and also on the right
http://4.bp.blogspot.com/-ZSuIE8FiBRE/TpOyz7EiNSI/AAAAAAAAAbg/XlXeU1W3qOM/s1600/6638e8208dfft.jpg
'Diamond imperial cyphers of the Empress Maria Feodorovna, consort of Paul I (left),
the Empress Elizabeth Alexeievna, consort of Alexander I, in combination with the monogram of the Dowager Empress Maria Feodorovna (right), and the Empress Maria Feodorovna, consort of Alexander III (center)'
and also here
http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-CCxiz_plQQs/TpO1E8F8W5I/AAAAAAAAAb4/54iUv41flPA/s1600/afghfksah35.jpg
source: http://arrayedingold.blogspot.co.uk/2011_10_01_archive.html
The palace also had trellis work on it - this is a recent photograph:
http://www.alamy.com/stock-photo-the-palace-of-tsar-pavel-paul-i-in-pavlovsk-saint-petersburg-russia-20857139.html
and she was very into horticulture and flowers with a huge knowledge apparently
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Feodorovna_(Sophie_Dorothea_of_W%C3%BCrttemberg)
I'm aware this is a sounding a little bit farfetched,however I thought it 'interesting' that finding an engraved egg is so rare and that it happened to have the initials MF on it.
I don't know how far from the truth I am with this (possibly a very long way ;D ) and there is a phrase for making evidence fit your ideas (can't remember it at the moment) but ... - confirmation bias is the phrase I'm looking for ...
On the other hand the design of the basket and the birds has some similarities with French handpainted opaline beakers dating to the early 1800s so it might be French (see Leon Darnis Baguiers et Verre a Boire pp115 for example). However none of the birds I can see in there have crests.
But then, Paul and Maria Feodorovna did a European tour taking in France in 1781
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maria_Feodorovna_(Sophie_Dorothea_of_W%C3%BCrttemberg)
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interesting piece, although regret I'm not remotely able to help with provenance or attribution. Would seem you're getting almost nil useful feedback here which understandable since subject must surely be of very limited knowledge on the GMB - which rather sad bearing in mind all the time you've taken to research.
If there is an outside chance of the high end provenance you are suggesting, why don't you send some pix to the ceramics & glass dept. at the V. & A. - they are generally very good. :) I very much doubt that you'll progress this one any further here.
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;D aah yes, if I was more sure I was correct I would send it to the Hermitage and ask.
But I'm not.
That's not to say there might not be a connection somehow (commemorative piece at a guess if there was a connection).
But I'm not sure enough of any link. The monogram M is correct though.
I do think it's very old and possibly 18th century .
m
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Hello!
This was probably the first thing you did !
https://www.google.se/search?q=russian+etched+glass+egg&client=firefox-b-ab&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiq6o-nkOTUAhXqJZoKHY3jAJAQ_AUICigB&biw=1280&bih=609
I am not sure if it Russian - I say it is possible!
I found one here that looks much like yours to my opinion and it says it is German
http://www.christmas.li/contents/en-us/d91.html
the second going down!
It would be helpful if you post picture of the base!
All the best!
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Thank you!
That is a similar size to mine.
I will do some more investigating now there might be a second one.
The base of mine has a tulip engraved onto it which is gilded. The base is rounded, not polished flat and the pontil mark (which also has a tulip engraved and gilded on it) is at the top of the egg. The pontil mark is snapped off and there are black markings around it.
I'll try and repost a photo of the base or link to the one earlier in the thread.
here goes:
This is the tulip engraved on the base - the base is curved,so the egg does not stand up on it's own as the base has not been ground flat unlike the one in your second link where the description says it has been flattenend so it stands up.
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=61429.0;attach=183331;image
This is the tulip engraved over the pontil mark - the pontil mark is at the top of the egg:
http://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=61429.0;attach=183321;image
I have a few of the more recent engraved Russian eggs and this is nothing like them at all :)
I also have an old (early 19th century) cameo egg as well. It is nothing like that either. That one is superb quality glass and cameo cutting and making.
This one (the gilded engraved one of mine) looks to me to be very old glass. And the tulips and trellis obelisk make me think older than 1880.
m
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One more thing to add re dating:
These are the Bergl rooms in the Schonbrunn Palace SCHLOSS SCHÖNBRUNN painted from 1769-1778
https://www.schoenbrunn.at/en/about-schoenbrunn/the-palace/tour-of-the-palace/bergl-rooms/
I don't see any obelisks but plenty of trellis work in all the rooms on the murals he painted.
m
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Russian beaker 18th century with bird.
To me the glass looks quite clear colour wise and has many tiny bubbles.
https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/wcm/connect/a90d6523-e011-4d1d-bd88-4687b397dadf/WOA_IMAGE_1.jpg?MOD=AJPERES&ccd12044-c7e4-46b4-92dc-10dc3c742933
https://www.hermitagemuseum.org/wps/portal/hermitage/digital-collection/08.%20applied%20arts/917837/!ut/p/z1/04_Sj9CPykssy0xPLMnMz0vMAfIjo8zi_R0dzQyNnQ28_J1NXQwc_YMCTIOc_dwNDE30w8EKDHAARwP9KGL041EQhd94L0IWAH1gVOTr7JuuH1WQWJKhm5mXlq8fYWChp5BYUJCTmZqikFhUUqwfYWlobmFsDnRPFJqJnt7mQBNDTD38_cOcjZxNoArwuKkgNzSiysfDINNRUREACFLzdg!!/dz/d5/L2dBISEvZ0FBIS9nQSEh/?lng=en
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Kramsacher Glashutte 19th century bier krug with gilded engraving on it including two birds with feathered crowns:
info from MAK
http://hauspublikationen.mak.at/viewer/image/1368015003387_0001/14/#topDocAnchor
page 12 of their publication but comes up on page 14 of their link
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Hi, just a couple of observations that probably won’t be useful, feel free to ignore them all ;D
The cross strike of the F doesn’t look to be the same style as the rest of the lettering - it is quite angular, looking like a lightning strike, the other parts of the lettering are flowing curves.
Might the cross hatched areas represent windows, which can have symbolic meaning that might be relevant to a love story. The hatched areas look a bit ugly to me so maybe they are there to convey meaning rather than for asthetics?
Are the birds love birds, or stylised love birds. Like these ones that have crests https://www.xupes.com/art/product-details/8102/antique-glass-marriage-carafe-engraved-with-love-birds-19th-c/antique-glass-marriage-carafe-engraved-with-love-birds-19th-c.html?
If this were a high end item for a wealthy recipient, doesn’t the engraving look reasonably crude due to the workmanship rather than the tools used? For example, in the curved tail of the M and F you can see where it looks like the curve has been produced by a series of straight cuts at different angles. If this had done by a more skilled hand wouldn’t they have rotated the piece against the wheel at varied pressure to create a nice curve. Maybe it looks a bit crude as it is actually very small, but how would it compare to the skill in Bohemian engraving of horsemen and such.
I know nothing of eggs and wouldn’t want to try to teach anyone to how to suck them :)
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Hi,thanks for looking :)
the quality of the engraving is no different to this:
https://scottishantiques.com/georgian-table-glass/decanters-carafes/georgiandecanter
and there are a few examples out there with what seems to be rather 'naive' engravings of tulips on the sides of the decanter/flask.
It's actually very tiny and there is lots of engraving on it for such a tiny piece. The big issue is the gilding has worn away on a lot of it. If it was there it would make a difference to the perception of the engraving I think. Yes I do think it's telling a story of some sort with relevance to whoever it was made for.
I'll probably never find out who made it but it is definitely, I would say, old.
m
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iconography much used in Germany/ Bohemia c.18th-19th century i.e. flaming hearts/birds. engraved and enameled.
Pictured: tankard w/lid, bird finial, engraved amethyst blown glass, strap handle. c. 19th c. [ formerly in my collection ]
Religious symbolism; early christian
Sometimes seen on betrothal glassware as a sign of fidelity.
Similar: search 1987.0129 at Winterthur museum.org online collection-glass
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Thanks Cagney. Lovely tankard :)
I'll take a look at the Winterthur museum collection.
Your tankard is dated c.19th century?
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!8th century form still in use early 19th century. I would date it roughly 1780-1820 give or take some years. Sold at auction early 1990's. Norman C. Heckler & Company gave a date as late as 1850 back then. Seems a bit late in my opinion.
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Thank you :)
m
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engraved gilded small bottle Russian 1793 in the Royal Collection.
https://www.rct.uk/collection/search#/38/collection/3703/catherine-the-great-ciphered-decanter-and-lid
I don't think the gilded engraving of my egg is that much different in quality and execution.
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=61429.0;attach=183315;image
https://www.glassmessages.com/index.php?action=dlattach;topic=61429.0;attach=183327;image
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Austrian engraved flask here with birds with crests for future reference:
https://www.pressglas-korrespondenz.de/aktuelles/pdf/pk-2007-4w-stopfer-glashuette-gilgen.pdf